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Minutes - 01/17/2011 - Plan CommissionMINUTES OF THE JANUARY 17, 2011 REGULAR MEETING OF THE PLAN COMMISSION OF THE VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK APPROVED AS WRITTEN ON APRIL 18, 2011 CALL TO ORDER: CALL TO ORDER The Regular Meeting of the Plan Commission was called to order by Chairwoman Tropinski in the Samuel E. Dean Board Room of the Butler Government Center at 7:00 p.m. 2. ROLL CALL: ROLL CALL Gail Polanek called the roll with the following persons PRESENT: Chairwoman, Marcia Tropinski, Members Thomas Doyle, Raymond Dunn, Raju Iyer, Gopal Lalmalani and Robert Lindgren ABSENT: Member Mintu Sharma IN ATTENDANCE: Robert Kallien Jr., Director of Community Development and Thomas Sheahan, Police Chief APPROVAL OF MINUTES: MINUTES REGULAR MEETING OF THE PLAN COMMISSION OF OCTOBER 18, 2010 Motion by Member Iyer, seconded by Member Doyle to approve the minutes of the October 18, 2010 Regular Plan Commission meeting as written. VOICE VOTE: Motion Carried 4. UNFINISHED BUSINESS UN MsanD BUSINESS There was no unfinished business to discuss. 5. NEW BUSINESS NEW BUSINESS A. GROTTO OAK BROOK – 3011 BUTTERFIELD ROAD – SPECIAL USE – ROBI - 3m1 OUTDOOR DINING – AMEND CONDITIONS CONTAINED IN spm-4L usE - ORDINANCES-1117 CONDITIONS IN ORDINANCES-1117 Director of Community Development Kallien provided an overview of the request, stating that three restaurants in the Oak Brook Promenade have approved outdoor dining areas that are subject to special use Ordinance S- 1117. Conditions are contained in the ordinance relative to live music as well as an operational timeframe when the outdoor dining area can be used. Due to the climate in our Midwest region, it is more than reasonable to seek an amendment to this condition. When the outdoor dining areas are restricted from being open on nice days that fall outside the VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 1 of 11 January 17, 2011 allowed timeframe, the patrons just go elsewhere. In regards to the live music request, there are sound regulations in the zoning ordinance and additional conditions could be considered that would address any adverse conditions. Don Lullo, General Manager of the Grotto Italian Steakhouse restaurant, reviewed the requested amendments to the special use. They are seeking extended hours for the operation of the patio and to also allow live music. Granting the special use permit would help to bring more guests into the Oak Brook area, which would increase the sales tax revenue. Many restaurants in the DuPage County area provide live entertainment with speaker music on patios, without date restrictions. There are locations in Lombard and Oakbrook Terrace located directly across the street from the property that can offer those services, which can take away sales tax revenue and creates a disadvantage and a hardship for the Oak Brook restaurants. The Grotto has gone through some very hard times with the economic downturn and the patio has almost single handedly heiped to bring them out of the slump and literally took them from the brink of bankruptcy to making a profit. That is how important it is to them, which is why they would appreciate this consideration for the requested relief and approval of the special use amendment. They will do everything in their power to provide a great service for the guests in their restaurant and comply with all village ordinances. He asked that the Plan Commission carefully review and consider the relief requested in this amendment. He addressed the questions raised by the Village Board as follows: a. How do you control the volume level? One band may be quiet and the next noisy. One day the speakers are down low and the next day they are turned up loud. Response: The volume levels will be strictly controlled by management and set to decibel levels in compliance with the ordinance. They will check all volume levels by traveling to neighboring locations while live music is playing, so that they can make sure they are within the restrictions. b. What will be the location and direction of the speakers? Response: Speakers will be pointed in towards the building down on the patio floor away from the outer parts of the patio. c. What can be done to deaden the sound? Response: The subwoofers will also be controlled, which tends to produce a louder decibel and can carry sound. d. How will you control this issue if noise would become a problem? Response: They will start a logbook to track any resident complaint, logging the date and time. They will do everything in their power to make sure that the music does not disturb the residents in the area. They will also provide contact information to the residents to address any concerns or questions they may have and will take them seriously. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 2 of 11 January 17, 2011 ��u Mr. Lullo addressed the standards for the special use, which were provided in writing for the case file, stating that all ordinances for the health, safety and welfare of the public will be adhered to and the request will not injure or devalue property in the neighborhood. They hope that the special use to extend the time and allowing music on the patio will enhance the viability of the restaurant to be able to offer those same amenities to their customers that are available across the street and in other nearby communities. Director of Community Development Kallien said that a sound meter measured the decibels during this meeting and got up to 64 decibels at its highest point. It is stipulated in the sound regulations that sounds are not to exceed 60 decibels from the property line. In this instance, it would be measured from the comer of Meyers and Butterfield Road. Over the last year, sound readings were taken at that corner and they noticed that the sound from the traffic at Butterfield Road and Meyers measured in excess of 70 decibels. Along the tollway, an excess of 80 decibels was generated. The village has the means to regulate decibels. About two years ago, the sound ordinance was adopted after reviewing what other towns permitted. With the exception of the sounds from a pool pump, which reached a reasonable solution, this has been the only issue that has caused any concern. Chairwoman Tropinski said that she was involved with the discussion regarding the adoption of the sound ordinance and a sound engineer provided a demonstration and 64 decibels was determined to be a reasonable level of sound. Director of Community Development Kallien said that in commercial areas between 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. it would be 60 decibels. The exterior boundaries of the Promenade are Butterfield to the north, Meyers Road on the east and I -88 on the south. The Grotto is located on the far eastern end of the development and overlooks a large pond. Member Doyle questioned the distance of the patio to the corner. Director of Community Development Ka1Gen estimated roughly 400 feet. Member Lindgren questioned what hours the music would be permitted. Mr. Lullo said that the liquor license allows them to operate until 2:00 a.m. on Friday and Saturday evening; and 11:00 p.m. on Sunday through Thursday. Director of Community Development Kallien responded that if the Plan Commission determined that 2:00 a.m. is too late, it could be modified as part of the recommendation to the Village Board. Mr. Lullo said that as far as music, they would like to have music allowed until 1:00 a.m. on Friday and Saturday evening; until 12:00 a.m. on Sunday and 11:00 p.m. on Monday through Thursday. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 3 of 11 January 17, 2011 Member Iyer questioned what would happen if other similar restaurants would request the same relief. Director of Community Development Kallien responded that if approved, the conditions set would be stipulated to McCormick and Schmick and Kona Grill. The greater issue is the usability of the outdoor dining area. Two other restaurants at the Promenade were approved under separate ordinances and do not have the timefiume limitation. There is an inequity and with the use of heaters and sheltering, the restriction of the timeframe is unreasonable. In regards to the issue of music, the goal is to create rules and reasonable regulations so that there is an expectation for the business owner and those that may be affected by the music. The village would then have the necessary tools in the sound regulations for enforcement. Many of the problems that have come up occur at night and the police department would respond to those. Police Chief Sheahan added that the police department would respond to any complaint that would be .received in or outside of Oak Brook. In response to some of the noise complaints, the officers compared the noise to the traffic on Butterfield and Meyers roads. Whenever there was a call that the music was too loud, they would go to the Grotto and nothing could be heard except for the noise from the vehicles on the road. A reasonable person would detemune that if the noise from the vehicles was louder than the music, then vehicular traffic would have to be prohibited, which they couldn't do. If a neighbor calls and there is a violation to the maximum decibels, the officer asks the neighbor to sign a complaint, since an officer cannot. No one has ever signed a complaint against the Grotto. The officers did in fact stand in the street, at the comer, and in the condominium building on the northeast comer, and in the shopping center across the street in Lombard. The vehicular traffic drowned out the music. The Grotto always complied when contacted. Member Iyer said that if the Grotto request would be approved and a similar request was received from another establishment and additional calls are received by the police it could be a resource issue for the police department. Police Chief Sheahan responded that they do not want to answer calls every 15 minutes for noise, but there have been less than 25 calls regarding the Grotto and a couple of other places over a 2 -year period. They handle approximately 13,000 calls per year. Member Lindgren asked if there was amplified recorded music currently permitted. Director of Community Development Kallien said that live music is prohibited in ordinance S -1117. They are trying to create parameters so that there can be a fair and reasonable utilization of the outdoor dining that can be enforced. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 4 of 11 January 17, 2011 Member Lindgren said that the ordinance does not preclude amplified music that is pumped through speakers. Restricting live music would seem to be pointless. Director of Community Development Kallien said that it could be modified to include any sound that is generated from the use and would be subject to the rules. Member Doyle said that in his experience in the trade show business with measuring sound decibels, it is a major issue. Sound is measured from the edge of the property under question, which in this case would be the patio. Decibel sound decreases 6 points for every doubling of space. Director of Community Development Kallien responded that from a technical interpretation of the code, it states that the sound reading is to be taken 25 feet from the sound source. In this case, it would be taken from the pond. It is possible that the sound waves may bounce offthe pond. Chief Sheahan said that the complaints received were from the condominium complex located at the northeast corner of Butterfield and Meyers Road, which could be 2,000 feet away from the source. It would seem that the sound would diminish greatly. Member Doyle responded that a different phenomenon might be taking place. A train can be heard from several miles away, and it may have to do with airwaves. His concern would be to allow music so loud that it would drive customers away from adjacent neighbors' patios. Member Dunn asked if the speakers could be turned toward its own facility and have materials added that would help to absorb its own noise. He said that he has been there and did not find the music objectionable because they were quiet within their realm. He would like to see the time controls changed so that the music is not on too late. Member Lindgren said that music is a different noise than background noise. He also questioned if ther6 would be a precedent issue should the measurement not be taken from the boundary. Director of Community Development Kallien said that the code states the sound is to be measured 25 feet from the sound source, which would be the speaker. Distance does diminish the sound. When questioned by Member Dunn as to the location of the speakers, Mr, Lullo responded that they are located on the southwest side of the patio facing the access doors from the lounge, facing northwest toward the Grotto. After talking with the police chief, they have been turning them more and trying to make the residents happy by lowering the sound. There is a canopy over the top so that it is semi - enclosed, even during the spring and summer. There is about 20 feet of patio on the VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 5 of 11 January 17, 2011 northeast side that is uncovered, but it is really only used for tables. The band had been put there, but they found that it was a problem because the music was more contained on the opposite side, under the canopy and the speakers could be faced toward the wall. Although they do not have a decibel meter, they could purchase an approved meter. Director of Community Development Kallien added that if there was a complaint, a police office could take a sound reading to establish the decibel reading. Member Lalmalani asked if the use was granted, what would happen if the other restaurants would like a DJ as well, it could be competing DJ's. Mr. Lullo responded that he understood the concern and added that this is the experimental part of their business and hopefully, as the economy and recession improves, they will move with the times. They are looking to try something such as a sax or piano player, in order to mix up the genre of the music entertainment. As far as McCormick and Schmick, he has worked for J. Alexander's in the past, which is a large restaurant corporation, do not allow or would not partake in offering DJ music. They are looking to change their music as well, as mentioned, with actual entertainers. Member Lalmalani said that he would hate to see a situation in Oak Brook, where a competitor would be at a disadvantage, to convert a quiet unique community and we need to be careful before jumping into a venture like this. Director of Community Development Kallien said that he agreed and said that they are looking at something new here that may he a challenge and if it turns into a problem by having multiple things occurring, it would need to be revisited. Member Dunn said that he would like to see something that is not intrusive to the neighbors or the other shops. Director of Community Development Kallien said that this is something that the Grotto would like to do and they want to manage the issue. This is a portion of Oak Brook that is really surrounded by a number of other towns. The Volare restaurant, is located north of Butterfield Road on the east side of Meyers Road, just north of the condominium towers, is going to offer music on Thursday, Friday and Saturday until midnight. In the summer, the Redstone restaurant is located just northeast of the tower condominium property and will have a DJ on their outdoor patio on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. Cbampps is located directly north of the Grotto in the Fountain Square in Lombard and usually has music at the end of the month on Thursday and Friday from 9 to midnight. Weber Grill is located right by Champps and offers music on Friday from 6 to 9 p.m. What the Grotto is requesting is already being done in that area, and unfortunately, by not allowing a reasonable use of their patio, the patrons will go somewhere else and that will ultimately hurt the Oak Brook business. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 6 of 11 January 17, 2011 Chairwoman Tropinski noted that it is located in the restaurant area. The Grotto and McCormick and Schmick are businesses. They will not have competing bands that would drive both of their customers away because both of the businesses would suffer. Their main concern is getting the customers in and comfortable while they are there. As far as the request to stay open later in the season, she recalled being at the restaurant on a gorgeous 70- degree day and she saw customers leaving McCormick and Schmick because they could not go out on the patio, which was closed because the special use ordinance prohibited it. We may want to be unique in Oak Brook, but we will lose our customer base, so there has to be some reasonable give and take. Member Dunn agreed with Chairwoman Tropinski points and asked if McCormick and Schmick ever complained about the music. Mr. Lullo responded that they have a very good working relationship with Kona Grill and McCormick and Schmick, and he speaks with the general managers of both. In none of their conversations was there ever been a problem mentioned. They respect their neighbors with mutual restaurant respect. If there would ever be an issue, he would be the fast one to straighten it out because they work together in the community to build the businesses in order to bring guests to the Oak Brook Promenade. Chief Sheahan said that in the summer, they had some complaints at the Grotto and he met with Mr. Lullo, who has been with the Grotto for less than 7 months. Since that time, he could not recall any other complaints. When a new venture begins, there may be issues and with time, they get things ironed out. The Grotto has been very responsible and responsive to the complaints, so whatever happened in the startup ended. William Lindeman, 11 Pembroke Lane, commented that he had written a letter to the board members that addresses many other village issues. He asked how music occurred over the last year and considerations given to the Grotto, since the owner lives in Oak Brook. Giving consideration since the Grotto was having hard financial times. Oak Brook has always been a community that was different from the rest and does not have to follow what other villages do. Certain sounds travel great distances and decibel levels may not be as important as the annoyance level, such as a cell phone or a dog barking. He would be more annoyed at those than a jet going overhead that would have a higher decibel level, which becomes acceptable. There were 25 complaints made and he thinks those were based more on an annoyance level. There is room for a lot of discussion as far as what can be done if similar applications are made by other restaurants and to envision circumstances that may cause difficulty for the village or creating a wrong image for the village. Robert Mesh, 20 North Tower Road, said that he lives on the backside of the tower and during the evenings when music is played, the sound reverberates off the apartment complex behind him. There had been nights that he wanted to call, but VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 7 of 11 January 17, 2011 dialogue was needed to allow for change. He wholeheartedly agreed and supported that the Grotto stays in business. A vacant building is not needed and we need to work in concert with each other to make this work. He agreed with the police chief about using common sense discretion. There is an enormous difference between white noise and what you hear with music; it is really annoying. If a compromise were going to be made, he would hope that the tinning of the liquor license not coincide with the noise license. If lights need to be turned off at a park, he would hope that there would be enough common sense to turn off the noise at the same time. There were evenings at 12:30 where music was being played and it was objectionable. He wants them to be in business, it is a great environment, but balance is needed. It is disingenuous to have noise measured at the street. Another option would be to change the musical venue and have it as loud as they would like until 10:00 p.m, and then bring in an acoustical group where the amplifiers are tiny for a more intimate setting. There are many different ways to work around it, but he hoped that the noise level would cease after a certain hour. Barbara Richards, 20 North Tower Road, said that she lives five floors up from Mr. Mesh on the east side of the building on the northeast corner. The sound travels right in between the open way of their building and the one located just north of them. She stated that one night she could hear the DJ's playlist because it was that loud and that plain. There is no excuse for music to be playing past midnight. It is annoying and people that have gone to sleep earlier are awakened by it. They cannot leave the windows opened on the west side of the building and there is no reason for that. She had talked to George and John (from the Grotto) on the phone, and nothing changed. No effort has been made to provide relief for the residents in the area. At times, it is almost until 2:00 a.m. and it is not fun. Lugene Simmons 20 North Tower Road, on the west side, said that it sounds like a boom box. After midnight on Friday night, the windowpane of her bedroom windows would just boom and boom. In the summer, she cannot open the balcony doors or windows because she cannot talk on the phone or hear the television. She believes that a big part of it is the pond, and the sound reverberates from it. She does not think that it would be that loud if it were sitting on the patio. She has not called the police, although her neighbor has made many complaints. The music is not what they hear; it is the boom, boom. Margaret Langhor, 20 North Tower Road, said that her windows face the west side, right across from the restaurant. She said that she personally called and complained about 10 times and believed there were more than 25 complaints received. In the beginning, the police responded and came to her unit. For two weeks, the speakers were moved and it was peaceful, The music started again and then when she called the (Oak Brook) police, she was told that they were in the unincorporated area and they could not help and was told to call the sheriff's office. When she called the sheriff's office (DuPage County), they told her it was not in their jurisdiction. She said that it needs to be reasonable and wants the business to be successful. She said that the music should stop by 11:00. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 8 of 11 January 17, 2011 Member Dunn asked Mr. Lullo if the restaurant could live with the music being turned off at 11:00. Mr. Lullo responded that they have a DJ on Friday and live bands on Thursday and Sunday. A good portion of their revenue comes in between 10:30 and midnight. He said that he understood what the residents were saying, but there is also a large group of people that like to be out at a certain hour. The Grotto is willing to work with everyone. Barbara Richards said that she agreed with the neighbors comments that there should be some type of time modification. She said that she could hear customers talking from across the street. Member Iyer questioned that she could hear the patrons talking from the restaurant. Ms. Richards responded that she could hear the DJ from her balcony, which is about a block and half away. Champps had a similar incident once, and after Lombald was called it stopped, and has not happened since. She believes they (Grotto) are alienating residents and when you cannot sleep over a weekend, it makes it very difficult. Member Lalmalani said that he did not see any urgency to these issues and that some more research should be done. Mr. Lullo said that they have the music indoors from time to time, but the lounge area is very small and the patio is very large with accessibility to the lounge. Member Dunn said that the same respect afforded to the customers should also work for the community. He also questioned whether having the music stop at 11:00 would work. Mr. Lullo said that the largest portion of their revenue is generated between 10:30 and 12:00 -12:30 a.m. To change it from 1:30 or 2:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. is kind of an extreme and that perhaps the volume levels could be reduced between 11:00 and 12 :00, with all music off by 12:30. It is a greater hardship on Friday evenings when they have a younger crowd. A different clientele comes into the restaurant on Thursday and Saturday and are more of the live band type environment. The Grotto is willing to work with the board to find a middle ground. Member Dunn commented that the residents noted for a period of time, there were not any problems. Mr. Lullo said that they have made changes by relocating the speakers and moving them into the building. Over the last two weeks, they have completely covered the patio in canvas, unlike the summer when the flaps are up. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 9 of 11 January 17, 2011 Chairwoman Tropinski said that the issue with the residents is to reduce the subwoofers that create some of the booming base sound; and the applicant has said that they will try to reduce that. Secondly, the residents have requested that the timing of the music be changed. More research should be done to compare what the surrounding villages have in their ordnances as far as outdoor music or whether it is confined to the inside. She suggested that the Plan Commission members visit the Grotto to see for themselves what the noise level is for some kind of comparison or feeling as to what is going on. Mr. Lullo said that in January and February, they do not have DJ music on Thursday and Saturday, they will have music on Friday. Member Doyle said that unless an area is defined where measurements are to be taken; his vote would be negative for the special use request. Director of Community Development Kallien said that as a special use, conditions could be included in any recommendation. Member Iyer agreed with Chairwoman Tropinski that more research is needed to find out what neighboring towns do and how to strike a middle ground to satisfy the residents and be fair to the business owners. Chairwoman Tropinski noted that the final determination could impact other restaurants. Motion by Member Dunn, seconded by Member Iyer to continue the hearing to the next regular Plan Commission meeting to allow for time to research surrounding communities regulations on outdoor music and to allow time for the members to visit the site. ROLL CALL VOTE: Ayes: 6 — Members Doyle, Dunn, Iyer, Lalmalani, Lindgren and Chairwoman Tropinski Absent: I — Member Sharma Nays: 0 — Motion Carried. Director of Community Development Kallien stated for the audience that 391 letters were mailed to the residents, which advised them that the public hearing on the Grotto matter would be before the Zoning Board of Appeals on February 1, 2011. Due to the continuance by the Plan Commission, The Grotto matter would not be heard at the Zoning Board meeting as noticed. He noted that the website would be updated to reflect the new dates and to please share the information with their neighbors. 6. OTHER BUSINESS There was no other business to discuss. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 10 of 11 .—�zi January 17, 2011 OTHER BUSINESS 7. ADJOURNMENT: Motion by Member Iyer, seconded by Member Doyle to adjourn the meeting at 8;23 p.m. VOICE VOTE: Motion carried. ATTEST: . Robert Kallien, rrector of Comm ty Development Secretary VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 11 of 11 January 17, 2011 Ica_ ADJOURNMENT