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Minutes - 04/18/2011 - Plan CommissionMINUTES OF THE APRIL 18, 2011 REGULAR MEETING OF THE PLAN COMMISSION OF THE VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK APPROVED AS WRITTEN ON OCTOBER 17, 2011 CALL TO ORDER: CALL TO ORDER The Regular Meeting of the Plan Commission was called to order by Chairwoman Tropinski in the Samuel E. Dean Board Room of the Butler Government Center at 7:02 p.m. 2. ROLL CALL: ROLL CALL Gail Polanek called the roll with the following persons PRESENT: Chairwoman, Marcia Tropinski, Members Thomas Doyle, Raymond Dunn, Raju Iyer and Gopal Lalmalani ABSENT: Member Robert Lindgren IN ATTENDANCE: Robert Kallien Jr., Director of Community Development APPROVAL OF MINUTES: MINUTES REGULAR MEETING OF THE PLAN COMMISSION OF JANUARY 17.2011 Motion by Member Iyer, seconded by Member Dunn to approve the minutes of the January 17, 2011 Regular Plan Commission meeting as written. VOICE VOTE: Motion Carried 4. UNFINISHED BUSINESS UNFINISHED BUSINESS A. GROTTO OAK BROOK – 3011 BUTTERFIELD ROAD – SPECIAL USE – GROTTO - 3011 NITERFIELD OUTDOOR DINING – AMEND CONDITIONS CONTAINED IN SPECIAL usR ORDINANCE S -1117 COND17IONS rN 00INANCE S -n 17 Robert Kallien reviewed the public hearing process explaining that it is a 3 -step process in Oak Brook. Don Lullo, General Manager of the Grotto Italian Steakhouse restaurant, said that granting approval of the special use permit would allow them to bring more guests into the Oak Brook area providing more business and increased tax revenue. It would also allow them to be competitive in the same environment with neighboring restaurants in order to have a chance at those revenue dollars as all the restaurants have in that area. Letters were received from the General Managers of Kona Grill and McCormick and Sclunick supporting this request to amend the ordinance and apologized for being unable to attend the hearing, The restaurants in the Promenade have a good working relationship. As agreed at the last meeting an incident logbook VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 1 of 11 April 18, 2011 1—�L was started and any incidents regarding any loud music complaints would be recorded. Since the last meeting on January 17, 2011 through the date of this hearing, April 18, 2011, there was only one complaint recorded on February 5, 2011. At that time, a police officer was dispatched in response to the complaint for loud noise. The report states that the officer found the noise at an acceptable level then spoke with the restaurant manager and left. At the last meeting, he stated that he would address any complaints personally and to date, he had not received any phone calls, from any residents. He personally handed out his business cards to many of the residents at the last meeting in good faith, to show that he cares and respects the community around them, and he is committed to find the balance needed so that everyone wins. They intend to purchase a decibel meter to ensure that they are within the required decibels. They have been hying to resolve issues with better communications, Decibel meter checks could be logged in order to comply with whatever conditions are required in order to allow the approval of live music. He requested a careful review because this is a big part of their business, resulting in $30- 35,000 per month, which is almost their rent. They are seeking a fair chance. Band permits and speaker music have been approved in Oak Brook. They do not believe they are seeking something that is ground breaking, but would like the ability to have a live band and speaker music. They are seeking music on Thursday from 8:00 to 11:30/12:00, Friday from 9:00 to 1:30 and Saturday from 8:00 to 12:00. Chairwoman Tropinski noted that at the last meeting, certain measures were put in place and she asked that they be reviewed. Mr. Lullo responded that he has trained his managers to monitor the volume of the music. He also has had them drive out to the corner of Meyers Road and Butterfield, through the Tower condominiums, in the areas behind Champps, to Route 83 and call the restaurant to report if anything was heard. They have done this several nights a week in order to monitor noise volumes. Speakers have been relocated and pointed toward the building and they have changed the area used on the patio to the farthest point from the pond. They are constantly monitoring the . noise volumes. Member Dunn questioned whether a meter was being used when they monitor the sound. Mr. Lullo responded that they have not used a meter, but would if the Commission would set a standard as to how many decibels and at what location it should be measured. Member Dunn questioned whether the police officers could go into the Tower residence that was complaining in order to hear the noise. Director of Community Development Kallien commented that would be something the police department would have to consider. Mr. Lullo noted that Police Chief Sheahan commented at the last meeting that a police officer had gone into the Towers and did not hear anything. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 2 of 11 April 18, 201 l Chairwoman Tropinski said that prior to the Sound Ordinance approval, the sound expert, Steve Young, had given a comprehensive summary on how sound operates by waves and vibrations. Measuring sound from a patio or over a pond would be very difficult to do because the sound can be carried over the water and bounce; there are other factors to it. It was determined that it would be reasonable to take the measurement from the edge of the property. It appears this is unusual circumstance could not have been foreseen. There are limits to an ordinance and some of the issues of sound may be due to perception, including culture, age, etc. The time of day and humidity can be a factor as well. The type of sound can also become an annoyance to some people. All things need to be considered prior to making a motion. Director of Community Development Kallien said that the Police Chief made it very clear at the last meeting that his officers are very willing to take formal action if a complaint were filed, but that has never been done and is unfortunate. Member Doyle thought there would be some explanation as to why the sound is traveling such a long way from the restaurant. Under the circumstances, he would have expected expert testimony presented. He was more concerned with the people in the restaurant and thought the measurement should be taken from the edge of the patio. Chairwoman Tropinski said that when the sound ordinance was reviewed it was thought that you could do what you wanted within your property, such as pool filters, lawn mowers, etc., however, it could not extend over into a neighbor's property. If that is still held to be true, then it is fair for the Grotto to measure the sound at the edge of the property, because once it goes beyond the property then they need to adhere to the regulations. If that were not upheld then the ordinance would need to be rewritten. An ordinance should be fair and be able to cover a number of scenarios. Director of Community Development Kallien said that sounds have to be able to be measured. Communities that have adopted ordinances to take care of boom box noise have a standard in place; it is not subjective. As an example, the building code has a minimum requirement for heat in order to be occupied. Everyone here would have a different opinion as to what temperature adequate heat should be. In order to get around that individual perception, by code heat has a specific number that can be measured and that is what is needed in this instance. The reality is that the village has received this request from the applicants. The complaints have only come from an area at the nearby condominiums. There has not been a single complaint from any other business in the Promenade or any patron of the Promenade, which has to be given some credence as well. It may need to be viewed from a more reasonable standpoint as to what the request really is. If a patron was offended by the level of music played at the Grotto, they could ask that it either be turned down or not go there again. The people that want to go there are there for that feature, and are not offended by it. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 3 of 11 April 18, 2011 I�Zo� Member Doyle said that except for the other restaurants there are no other businesses open in the Promenade at that time music is played. Director of Conununity Development Kallien noted that there is more activity going on during the evening at the Promenade than during the day. The restaurants have a tremendous amount of interaction during the evening hours. Member Dunn suggested having the music inside the bar area and allow the music to filter to the outside. He suggested altering the time music is played to no later than midnight on the weekend and 11 on Thursday. Mr. Lullo responded that they have bands on Thursday and Saturday evenings and a DJ on Friday. It appears that the complaints are mostly when the DJ is there, which may be due to the type- of music be played. The lounge is a very tight closed -in environment. The thing about sound is that the volume can be controlled. If a standard were set as suggested, they would absolutely adhere to that and understand the consequences. He believes that they could make it work if standards were set and they would operate in compliance with those standards. Management can control the volume. There is very limited seating inside. Most of the revenue is generated between 10:30 p.m. and 1:30 a.m. and they are willing to work with the Village. At midnight, they are at their highest point regarding the number of guests and revenue. There is a wide demographic of guests ranging from late 20's into their 50's. There are not a lot of young people there at that time. Member Dunn said that he could go along with a controlled volume level. Mr. Lullo said that they would absolutely maintain the volume at the decibels set. Jan Szalaj, Property Manager of the Oakbrook Towers, said that most of the complaints are on Friday evening when there is a DJ at 2:00 a.m. Dominic Ruggerio, President of the townhome and homeowner associations at the Oak Brook Towers. Their role is to maintain a good community. Although there appeared to be a small number of complaints, he introduced copies of complaints received from the residents between October and November of 2010, primarily from the condominiums, which may be that the sound projects itself up through the tower. There is always dialogue regarding noise, primarily on Friday evening. He compliments the owners and staff at the Grotto, but his community must come first. Member Dunn questioned that since there have not been many complaints, whether the residents were intimidated by the police. Mr. Ruggerio responded that the residents are pretty confident and not intimidated by the police, but that the number of times the police followed through to present themselves at someone's door was rare. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 4 of 11 April 18, 2011 �v Chairwoman Tropinski questioned the times that the complaints were made. He responded that after 1:00 a.m. Member Iyer asked what time would be a good time for the music to stop. He responded that he would need to canvas the residents. Director of Community Development Kallien said that the hour doesn't really matter, it is whether or not the music can be heard, so how late isn't the issue it is the intensity of the sound. Chairwoman Tropinski asked if the members of the audience the music could not be heard, did they care how late it was played. The consensus of the audience was that as long as they could not hear the music, they did not care how late that it played. The noise disturbs their comfort, sleep and is an annoyance. Carmen Cosco, President of the condominium board said that Police Chief Sheahan said at Village meeting that their residents were soliciting free lunches from the Grotto. William Linderman, 11 Pembroke Lane said that the comments were made at the September 14, 2010 Village Board meeting when the issue was referred to the Plan Commission for consideration. There was a discussion and statements were implied that those residents who met at the Grotto would continue to receive free meals. He questioned how the other restaurants in town were able to be successful without live music and why does this one needed live music to survive. Other issues should be taken under consideration before a precedent is set. Robert Mesh, 20 North Tower Road, said that if the Grotto utilized their banquet facilities for DJ night the music could be played as loud as they like without disturbing the residents at the towers. As far as not calling the police, he said that he did not want to be involved with filing a police report. As far as time, no time is acceptable. He cannot sit on his balcony after 9:00 p.m. There was a point over the summer that his windows were closed and he still could not sleep. It is a valid concern and he is hoping the Grotto could exercise control over the volume, then no one would be at the meeting to complain. Joe Weidman, 20 N Tower, said that he did not mind the kind of music played and enjoys that type of music, but it is obscenely loud. His unit and the cluster around it are impacted the most. There is no sleeping on Thursday, Friday or Saturday night. Windows cannot be left open during nice weather and the air conditioner must run in order to drown out the noise. The reason that the Grotto cannot hear anything when they drive around is because the noise is not at ground level, the noise bounces off the water and up the building. In order to get a true feel, they would need to visit one of the units. It literally feels like the band is playing on his balcony. It is unbelievable, and they do not know why the sound travels so far and is so clear. He VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 5 of 11 April 18, 2011 did call the police on several occasions and the man on the phone explained to him that the Chief of Police had instructed them not to respond to noise complaints for the Grotto. He was dumfounded, but that was all he could do. He was not going to drive to the police station to file a complaint, because he does not understand the process either, nor does he want to be involved, He was told that his input did not count, For some reason the Grotto got special treatment and his complaints were ignored. If decibels were agreed to, he would volunteer his unit be used to measure the decibels, even though he is a quarter of a mile away. Lugene Simmons 20 North Tower Road, on the west side, said that it sounds like a boom box. After midnight on Friday night, the windowpane of her bedroom windows would just boom and boom. In the summer, she cannot open the balcony. Mavis Koopman, 20 North Tower Road, has a unit on the 6 °i floor. She is 80 years old and has lived there for 40 years. She does not demean the Grotto, but she is not getting sleep at night from 11:00 until 3 a.m. She has taken her pillow into the bathroom to sleep at times, because the booming noise of the music deprives them of their sleep. She appreciates the consideration of this issue. Margaret Langer, 20 North Tower Road, said that she personally called and complained to the police and would submit a copy of the report to the village and the police officer did hear the music. Member Dunn said that he would suggest that decibels be set at the maximum allowed by code and if they are notified that it is violated, then the use should be stopped. He suggested that a time limit be set. Member Doyle questioned if music was currently being played. Mr. Lullo responded that they have music on Friday and just started on Thursday evening. Member Doyle commented that music was being played in violation of the approved ordinance, which disturbed him. He also questioned where the edge of the property was located. He noted that some of the sound is going up high and disturbing a number of people. Director of Community Development Kallien said that the applicant was here at the direction of the Village Board and they are possibly in violation of the ordinance. The Grotto is a tenant of the Promenade and the edge of the property is at Butterfield and Meyers Road. He noted that when the analysis was done for the sound regulations, Steve Young (member of Zoning Board of Appeals) pointed out that the lower the sound goes, the wavelength of the sound is different and it may not be that the intensity is that loud, but you may feel and hear the sound. There may be a type, level or intensity of sound that might be coming from the restaurant that can be heard. It may be a combination of factors that a sound meter alone may VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 6 of 11 April 18, 2011 �'Z not technically solve the problem. Member Dunn questioned whether this should be allowed for just one restaurant. Director of Community Development Kallien responded that the control is under the special use. Conditions can be attached that are unique for the site, because not all sites are impacted similarly. Director of Community Development Kallien noted that a study was conducted regarding what was allowed in surrounding towns. We found that most other communities do not regulate music on outdoor dining areas as part of the outdoor dining area special use. Most have it attached through the liquor license, which are issued annually. Most complaints are handled through the police departments and are then subjected to the discretion of the police officer. There really is not a written standard. We have tried to integrate a standard, but try to be reasonable and address the neighbors' concerns as well. Margaret Langer questioned music being played without an approved permit. Director of Community Development Kallien explained that the Plan Commission is an advisory board that is appointed by the Village Board. This matter was brought up to the Village Board; they discussed it and advised that the Plan Commission and Zoning Board of Appeals review the request. William Lindeman said that the Grotto is a wonderful asset to the Village and the Promenade, but felt that more information and fact gathering was needed before going forward. The members discussed some of the sound issues and possible options, such as where to measure the sound levels, what the decibel level should be, etc. Director of Community Development Kallien said that there were approximately four separate occasions where staff went out and measured the decibel levels and they were trying to catch the highest intensity of sounds. The highest decibel measured was 64. They also measured at the back parking lot of the Grotto and could not hear any music, but the cars measured 75 along 1 -88 and a similar reading was taken at Butterfield and Meyers Road. Chairwoman Tropinski suggested that perhaps it could be approved with conditions attached such as controlling decibel levels, good record keeping of the decibels and perhaps review the matter in 3 months to see how it is working Mr. Lullo said that to his knowledge they have been allowed to have music for the past two years, and they did not know that a permit was needed, which added to the confusion. What he has learned over the last couple of months is that technically, Kona Grill, McCormick and Schmick all operate speaker music, which is also not in VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 7 of 11 April 18, 2011 the ordinance. Had they known two years ago that a permit was required to allow live music the Grotto would have applied for it at that time, which is the reason they are now going through the public hearing process. A resident of the Tower condominium suggested that it be recommended to the village to hire a sound consultant to assess the issues and come up with possible solutions that are amenable to the residents and the Grotto. Chairwoman Tropinski said that the Plan Commission needs more guidance as to what would be an acceptable noise level because of the unique conditions. Member Durm said that he was not under the impression that the music was allowed before receiving approval. Although it may be at acceptable levels, it is getting past that at times, which is the problem. He questioned whether they are experimenting with the Grotto and the neighbors to figure out how many complaints they are going to get. Member Iyer said that the focus of the Plan Commission was whether it would approve or not approve the request of the petitioner and not whether or not they needed permission, which is not under the purview of the Commission, that is up to the Village Board and it will be their decision at that time. Member Doyle commented that to simplify the recommendation it may be to deny the request because the Commission does not understand the following: • The dynamics of the sound carrying from the restaurant to the annoyance of the neighbors. • How it is possible to adequately measure sound level given the distance of property edges from the actual point of sound • They are of the opinion that an ordinance needs to address the level of sound within the space that people actually are. Member Iyer commented that speaking for himself, the job of the Plan Commission is to listen to the people as well as to the businesses. The business is not out to create a nuisance for anyone, so to just deny or reject the request would be unfair to the owner. Member Doyle said that in his opinion, the recommendation would not be that it should not happen, but given the parameters of the petition, that it is inadequate for the Plan Commission to move forward. The applicant is asking for things that the Commission is not capable of giving good instruction to the Zoning Board, because there is too much that they do not know in order to approve the request. Chairwoman Tropinski said that it sounds as though the Sound regulations are fair, however, it may not be enforced Towers, because their complaints agreed with Member Iyer that the VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes after listening to the residents residing in the were not addressed adequately. Although she business should not be penalized, the Village Page 8 of 11 _k' April 18, 2011 needs to ensure that the ordinance is enforced. If that does not work, then the ordinance should be modified, but more data to support that is needed. Member Dunn added that it is a unique situation with the ponds location, because should it be at the area of the Kona Grill, none of the problems may exist. Member Doyle noted that some measurements have been made by the Department of Community Development, but it is not working. A determination cannot be made, and the Commission can only guess that the pond is the issue. The sound may just be shooting right up into the buildings and the buildings could be responsible. He questioned how they could make a positive recommendation given those circumstances. Member Tropinski stated that the recommendation could be that before it can be approved, an acoustics expert should do further studies. Member Dunn added that the sound could not be amplified outside given the present zoning regulations. There has been a lot of discussion and he would like to see it resolved. The Zoning Board may have better capabilities to handle and resolve it. Member Iyer said that he thought the whole purpose was being defeated. The Plan Commission should try to create some kind of framework and move it forward or the existing problem will continue. It will continue through the process and ultimately it will go to the Village Board for its final decision to decide whether it is right or wrong. Jane Henricksen said that she lives at 20 North Tower Road and will hear the music on occasion, but not as much as those located on the west side. She said that she understood the hearing procedures, but would like the Plan Commission to consider a requirement that the music is inside instead of outside and that the surveys of resident's comments are read by the boards. Motion by Member Dunn, seconded by Member Iyer to eliminate the restriction of the April to October timeframe as stipulated in Ordinance S -1117. ROLL CALL VOTE: Ayes: 4 — Members Doyle, Dunn, Iyer and Chairwoman Tropinski Absent: 1— Member Lindgren Abstain: 1— Member Lalmalani Nays: 0 — Motion Carried. Member Lalmalani commented that it was a major concern that live music had been played outdoors for two years without a permit. Motion by Member Dunn, seconded by Member Doyle to recommend denial of the request for amplified outdoor music for the reasons stated during this hearing. ROLL CALL VOTE: VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 9 of 11 April 18, 2011 Ayes: 3 — Members Doyle, Dunn and Chairwoman Tropinski Nays:. 1 — Member Iyer Absent: 1— Member Lindgren Abstain: 1 — Member Lalmalani. Motion Failed. Member Iyer requested that a motion be reconsidered that would include parameters recommended by the Plan Commission to be reviewed by the Zoning Board. The members discussed certain parameters be set to control the time and decibels at which the music could be played. Director of Community Development Kallien said that the applicant is not requesting music, but the ordinance as written, does not allow live music on the patio, which is what they are requesting to do. Chairwoman Tropinski suggested that the motion be to allow live music, but to restrict the hours that it can be played. Motion by Member Iyer, seconded by Member Dunn to recommend approval to allow live music to be played on the outdoor dining area and to not exceed the decibels as set for in the village code. Member Doyle asked to discuss the motion. Director of Community Development Kallien reviewed the rules of procedures on motions. Member Iyer requested that parameters be included in the motion to recommend approval. After further discussion, Member Dunn suggested that a motion to approve or deny be made. The music can be played inside the restaurant with the doors open to the outdoor patio and is not to exceed the maximum 60- decibel reading as required in the village code. They further requested that the Zoning Board of Appeals follow up on the concerns raised by the commissioners. Motion by Member Dunn, seconded by Member Doyle to recommend denial of the request for live music and to condition the sound decibels at which music can be played. ROLL CALL VOTE: Ayes: 2 — Members Doyle and Dunn Nays: 2 — Member Iyer and Chairwoman Tropinski Absent: 1— Member Lindgren Abstain: I — Member Lahnalani. Motion Failed. Due to the loss of two Plan Commission members, the next meeting would only result in one additional vote, which would not change the outcome of the motion. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 10 of 11 April 18, 2011 As a result, the failed motion will be recorded as a denial of the request. 5. NEW BUSINESS There was no new business to discuss. 6. OTHER BUSINESS Director of Community Development Kallien noted that this would be the last Plan Commission meeting for Member Lalmalani, who is the Village President - Elect. The members congratulated and thanked President -Elect Lalmalani. ADJOURNMENT: Motion by Member Iyer, seconded by Member Doyle to adjourn the meeting at 9:18 p.m. VOICE VOTE: Motion carried. ATTEST: /s/ Robert Kallien Jr. Robert Kallien Jr., Director of Community Development Secretary VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 11 of 11 April 18, 2011 NEW BUSINESS OTHER BUSINESS ADJOURNMENT