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Minutes - 05/17/2010 - Plan CommissionMINUTES OF THE MAY 17, 2010 REGULAR MEETING OF THE PLAN COMMISSION OF THE VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK APPROVED AS WRITTEN ON JUNE 21, 2010 1. CALL TO ORDER: CALL TO ORDER The Regular Meeting of the Plan Commission was called to order by Chairwoman Tropinski in the Samuel E. Dean Board Room of the Butler Government Center at 7:32 p.m. 2. ROLL CALL: ROLL CALL Gail Polanek called the roll with the following persons PRESENT: Chairwoman, Marcia Tropinski, Members Thomas Doyle, Raymond Dunn, Robert Lindgren and Mintu Sharma ABSENT: Member Raju Iyer and Gopal Lahnalani, IN ATTENDANCE: Robert Kallien Jr., Director of Community Development 3. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: MINUTES There were no minutes to be approved at this meeting. 4. UNFINISHED BUSINESS UNFINISHED BUSINESS - SIGN A. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK TEXT AMENDMENT — SIGN REDS T VILLAGE REGULATIONS — VILLAGE OWNED WAY FINDING SIGNAGE AND OWNED WAY FINDING SIGNAGE BANNERS DISCUSSION (LIMITED TO VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK AND BANNERS PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAYSI TO PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAYS) Director of Community Development Kallien recommended that the banner program and the way finding signage be split and dealt with as two separate matters since they are completely different issues. A survey will be sent to commercial businesses in targeted areas that may benefit from way finding signage and will also encourage businesses to attend the next Plan Commission meeting to participate and provide their thoughts on way finding signage. With respect to the issue of banners, language has been prepared using the City of Naperville as the model. They have a very successful banner program and if the Village would wish to pursue a banner program it would be of a similar nature. All of the areas in Oak Brook where Village -owned light poles are located have been identified. The vast majority of the major thoroughfares are void of light poles. 22 "a Street from Route 83 to York Road and then 16` Street and Spring Road to 22 "a VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 1 of 8 May 17, 2010 Street. There are also poles along Jorie Blvd., which is more of a corporate type of street. There are public open spaces scattered along Jorie, so he recommended that the focus not be in that area. The portion of Vd Street from the I -88 bridge east has a significant frontage along the golf course and some redevelopment north. The Oakbrook Center is the major land owner where the poles are located with frontage along four different streets. He spoke with Chuck Fleming, the Center's manager, who found it to be an interesting concept; however his main reservation was that it would not seem to be appropriate if banners were allowed around the Center in order to promote competitive commercial activity elsewhere in the Village. If done with aesthetics in mind, he thought it could be beneficial. Peter Hiegel, with the Marriott Hotel was very much in favor of promoting the hotel as well as other hotels in the area. The Village Board indicated at its meeting that Tuscany restaurant would like to participate in the program. He recommended that the proposed banner standards be utilized as a framework and to focus on the defined areas. If the Plan Commission recommends approving or denying the standards as proposed, that recommendation would return to the Village Board. The entire control of the program would lie with the Village Board in terms of design and final approval of the banners. It would then be transmitted to the Zoning Board of Appeals for public hearing in order to amend the sign regulations. Member Lindgren agreed that the banner program and way finding signage should be separate matters. He asked whether the purpose for the banner program was to be a revenue generator or an internal village communications device, etc. Director of Community Development Kallien responded that it came at the direction of the Village Board and could be used as an attention getting device to announce special events, which is how most communities use banners and to announce shopping opportunities. Member Lindgren noted that there are other jurisdictions with their own signage /identity programs. There are many things to do and see that are under the jurisdiction of the Park District or the County. He thought that a banner program may be below Oak Brook standards. Member Dunn said that Burr Ridge has a very tasteful banner program and Hinsdale has banners that promote shopping in Hinsdale. The idea of banners in Oak Brook would be to bring people into the community to shop in town, which could generate sales tax. Member Lindgren noted that Hinsdale and Naperville have a downtown area, and Oak Brook does not. He was troubled about the idea of selling signage and concerned about the even - handedness of where signs would be allowed. Member Dunn said that he did not know if the Oakbrook Center needed signs and it VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 2 of 8 May 17, 2010 was difficult for him to understand why Tuscany would need a banner since they are busy and are crowded all the time. Banners may look good if they are tastefully done and rotated. Director of Community Development Kallien said that there would be a timeframe on how long the banners could be displayed and there would be a charge assessed to take them down. The Village Board would retain all of the design approval; there would be controls in place to regulate what could or could not be installed. The Plan Commission is to review, discuss and then make a recommendation to the Village Board, along with the reasons for the recommendation. Member Lindgren said that he would be in favor of banners if they are used to denote the overall well -being and business activity of the Village to draw in the public. He was hesitant with advertising by selling space to individual retailers. Member Dunn said that he had changed his idea of banners that would be for the whole good and not advertising for individual retailers. That may cause legal problems when another retailer could not have a banner due to its location outside the permitted area. Director of Community Development Kallien said that most banners are set up for special events or to draw attention to a particular area, etc., but are not for commercial advertising. He talked to staff at the City of Naperville and was told that they had discussed the possibility and were struggling with what should be allowed in what area of their town. Member Lindgren said that unless a revenue source is established with the program, it could not be self - financed by the Village. Director of Community Development Kallien said that there are special events like the Taste of Oak Brook or events that take place at the Peabody Mansion where participants may want to announce the upcoming events. The Village should not be put in a position to subsidize the announcement of these events. It should be set up to at least cover the Village's expenses. Member Doyle questioned what would be the minimum number of banners that could be used by a commercial entity. Director of Community Development Kallien responded that the Director of Public Works, Michael Hullihan said that the equipment to install the banners would need to be rented by the Village and that it would not pay to install fewer than 10 banners at a time; being either through one entity or through several entities. Member Doyle said that he had seen double banners displayed in Naperville. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK May 17 2010 Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page�3 of 8 Y i� Director of Community Development Kallien said that due to all the existing vegetation along the south side of 22 ' Street, a banner located on the inside would be difficult to see. Member Doyle said that that he could envision how the banners could be used by the Village, but would involve the management of the Oakbrook Center. If they do not buy into the program, then the whole issue would be dead, because he could not see banners being placed around the Center that would not support what the shopping center is doing. He would not want to see a restaurant from the Promenade putting banners opposite Gibsons. If the Oakbrook Center would want to do something that involved the whole Center, they would be able to promote various events or a theme that would support the different types of stores within the Center. He could not see any kind of program around the Center that would not involve the management of the Center; it just would not make any sense. Director of Community Development Kallien agreed. Member Doyle said that there was nothing in the guidelines that would determine what can be promoted on the banner itself except that the Village has the final authority. He questioned what would make the Plan Commission or the Village Board able to make good choices as far as what a good banner program would be. He could see where McDonald's might want to put banners in front of their building. Working for a retail association he was very sensitive as to how retailers react to each other; and noted that they are intensely competitive. Member Lindgren said that if he was the manager for McCormick and Schmick (at the Oak Brook Promenade) and all of a sudden banners started going up around the Oakbrook Center promoting restaurants there, he would ask where the relief would be for his restaurant and how he could be offered the same competitive opportunity. Member Doyle said that Oakbrook Center may want to promote different businesses by seasons or timing and would be a program built completely for the Center. Member Dunn said that specific stores or restaurants should not be advertised on the banners. Member Doyle said that corporate imaging is not to advertise for something specific but rather to convey the image that someone is there. In a banner program you are not trying to sell SFecifrc products, you are trying to promote an image. If you are driving along 22" Street, there is no way to know what restaurants are located within the Oakbrook Center. If the Center manages it, they may want to absorb it as part of the costs of promoting the Center. Member Lindgren added that the light poles are located on the Village right of way and Oakbrook Center is not the only large mixed use commercial resident in Oak VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 4 of 8 May 17, 2010 Brook. He would be concerned about turning over the management of a Village initiated program to the Oakbrook Center. It should be more than just promoting the Oakbrook Center. Member Doyle noted that the Village would not make any money on a banner program. However, excitement can be created about the Center that encourages people to come into all the wonderful places there are to shop. Not everyone driving down 2fd Street knows all of the retail stores in the Center. A banner program reminds people that it is an exciting place to visit. Member Lindgren said, however, if he were a merchant or restaurateur of the Village not located in the Center, he would be looking for quid pro quo. Member Dunn said that the internet is drawing so many people out of the shopping centers because goods can be bought cheaper and shipped free online, so you want to encourage the Center to do well. Banners such as the one for the Highland Games is only out for several days, and if someone does not drive down that particular street, they would not know an event is going on there. Chairman Tropinski suggested that the banner program language should be modified to indicate a minimum number of banners being placed along a street, so that it does not look disjointed. Member Dunn suggested starting a banner program in phases, such as the Oakbrook Center being phase one to see if it works; and if it works, it can go forward quickly to another area. Member Lindgren responded that phases would be difficult since there are only a limited number of light poles that can be utilized in the Village. William Lindeman, 11 Pembroke Lane, said that his biggest disappointment was that there was an urgency to move the banner program along to the Village Board. He suggested that one of the items to be considered for the banner program, would be polo since it is coming back to Oak Brook on a limited basis, along with the special events held at the Oakbrook Center. The Oakbrook Center should be on their own since they know what their businesses needs are. People realize what stores are located in the shopping center. He said that he tends to ignore the costs it would take to help somebody in business, because it helps the Village. If it costs $20 to have someone install a banner, it is like counting pennies when considering the budget where there are hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on legal fees and costs that have gone uncontrolled for so long. This is like treating nickels like they were manhole covers, as President John Craig has said in the past. He would focus on the Sports Core. Also the two anus for the banners are the most common. Tuscany restaurant has multiple problems and they will not be satisfied with a banner, they need a larger sign, but they are doing fine and will not be selling VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 5 of 8 May 17, 2010 pencils on the street. He mentioned issues with other types of banners that he has seen in town, such as those hanging over the railings at the Grotto and some displayed by the churches. He suggested the Plan Commission proceed with caution on banners as well as not allow a reduction of landscaping so that existing signs are more visible. Member Sharma said that cities are judged by the kind of signage and banner program they have, so the Plan Commission needs to be very careful. She suggested that the proposed banner program be changed to be a "light pole banner program" so that it is more specific. It should identify the events that would be allowed, which may be cultural events that could be sponsored by a retail store. She was not in favor of restaurants having banners located across 22 "d Street and did not want to see advertising for sales on the banners. The Village will be judged by the type of banners on display. Member Lindgren said that he supports a banner program that promotes awareness of Village sponsored and Village related activities, but was not supportive of a program that could be used to advertise specific retail stores or restaurants. As long as it is low key, as suggested by Member Sharma to allow retail establishments to sponsor a banner and is not direct advertising of the commercial establishment. Director of Community Development Kallien noted that the City of Naperville has banners along Aurora Road that say "shop Naperville" or "shop downtown Naperville" that sells a message, not a particular store. Member Lindgren noted that there are many things going on in Oak Brook and by increasing awareness it can increase the attractiveness of Oak Brook as a destination. Member Sharma commented that Oak Brook needs to stand apart and not imitate other towns such as Naperville or Westmont, etc., but to show how distinct we are from other towns. Member Doyle agreed with the commissioners' comments, but the issue is whether or not the management at the Oakbrook Center wants to be involved. If they do not, it should be recommended to the Village Board that without the involvement of the Oakbrook Center it would be pointless to move forward on a banner program. The only area that is being considered for the program is the area around the Center. He would question, what the Center would like to do to enhance the Center as a destination. If they support the concept, then the Village could work with that to incorporate events that occur in the Village, such as the Highland Games, polo, etc. Member Dunn noted that in Bob Kallien's letter on page 33.a of the case file provides some of Oakbrook Center management's ideas and objections to the banner program. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 6 of 8 May 17, 2010 Director of Community Development Kallien noted that the Center supports the community event banners, but was concerned about banners that would compete with the Oakbrook Center. The Commissioners have indicated that they do not support banners that would promote individual businesses or products advertising and have identified some worthwhile uses for banners. The areas would need to be defined with the greatest amount of visibility, such as along 22nd Street and Jorie Blvd. The Oak Brook Park District and Hawks Soccer along Jorie each have many events. Member Dunn noted that Jorie Blvd is extremely busy and the banners should be tastefully done. Director of Community Development Kallien said that the minimum timeframe for placement of a banner should be 14 days. However, 90 days may be too long for some cultural events and suggested 30 days as a good alternative, The types of activities could be cultural, forest preserve district activities, Highland Games, polo, Taste of Oak Brook, golf activities, Autumn Fest, Graue Mill, Peabody Mansion, cycling events, musical series at the library, Sports Core events, etc. The Plan Commission could recommend to the Village Board that at this time, the advertisement for specific commercial activities does not provide a benefit to the community and there are a lot of pitfalls in doing so. It could easily get out of control and may be part of the reason why other communities do not do it. Member Doyle said that part of the banners guidelines would prohibit its proximity outside of their location, so a banner for Tuscany could not be on the Oakbrook Center side of the street. Director of Community Development "lien said that the guidelines would be revised and when the Plan Commission is in agreement a recommendation can be made to forward it to the Village Board.. Member Doyle suggested that a meeting be arranged with a couple members of the Plan Commission and with Oakbrook Center management regarding the discussion on the banner program. It was agreed that Members Doyle and Lindgren would attend a meeting when scheduled. Motion by Member Lindgren, seconded by Member Dunn to continue the discussion of this matter to the next regular Plan Commission meeting. VOICE VOTE: Motion Carried. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 7 of 8 May 17, 2010 5. NEW BUSINESS NEW BUSINESS 101 7 There was no new business to discuss. OTHER BUSINESS There was no other business to discuss. ADJOURNMENT: Motion by Member Doyle, seconded by Member Dunn to adjourn the meeting at 8:46 p.m. VOICE VOTE: Motion carried. ATTEST: Robert Kallien, Direct of Commu ty Development Secretary VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 8 of 8 May 17, 2010 OTHER BUSINESS ADJOURNMENT