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Minutes - 09/07/2004 - Board of TrusteesVILLAGE OF OAK BROOK SPECIAL BOARD MEETING IN RE THE MATTER OF: ) SELECTION PROCESS OF ) PERMANENT POLICE CHIEF ) Held on Tuesday, September 7, 2004, commencing at the hour of 7:30 p.m., the Butler Government Center, 1200 Oak Brook Road, Oak Brook, Illinois. PRESENT: VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK KEVIN QUINLAN, Village President LINDA K. GONNELLA, Village Clerk RICHARD B. BOEHM, Village Manager ELAINE ZANNIS, Trustee JOHN W. CRAIG, Trustee SUSAN CHASE KORIN, Trustee GEORGE T. CALEEL, Trustee ASIF YUSUF, Trustee DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 • • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I'd like to ask everybody to join myself and the Board in the pledge of allegiance. (Pledge of allegiance given) . PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Linda, would you please call the roll. MS. GONNELLA: Trustee Atkipis. Trustee Caleel. MR. CALEEL: Here. MS. GONNELLA: Trustee Craig. MR. CRAIG: Trustee Korin. MS. KORIN: Here. MS. GONNELLA: Trustee Yusuf. MR. YUSUF: Here. MS. GONNELLA: Trustee Zannis. MS. ZANNIS: Here. MS. GONNELLA: President Quinlan. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Here. We have a quorum. I'll just remind everybody that is here in the audience and the members of the press -- I know the Board knows this -- this is a special meeting. We will stick to the agenda as published and the agenda as published only. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 2 1 ]� t • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 The first item on the agenda is item 3(a), to discuss and vote on the selection process of a permanent police chief. I believe this is in reference -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong -- to the -- my alternative to the alternative proposal, as we agree to call it. Is there any discussion from the Board? MS. ZANNIS: Yes. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Go right ahead. MS. ZANNIS: Thank you very much. I did ask that the meeting be called, and I wanted, first of all, to thank you for your response because it was timely and it was very well directed. And I know that at the end of your letter, you had said, I look forward to hearing from you, and you said that, you know, your cell phone was available. I didn't call you -- although I know some trustees called you, I didn't call you because I wanted to have the dialogue with everybody because my objective here is to move this along as fast as possible. So I thought that the team DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Is 12 13 14 15 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 approach would be best. And my main objective for tonight is to finish the negotiation process, if we can, actually not if we can, but to finish it, and that when we walk away from here, we have consensus amongst everyone as to how we're going to get this job done. So that's my objective. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I think it's a great objective. MS. ZANNIS: Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay. What I'm hoping to do is to identify the components of your proposal versus our proposal, what is acceptable, what is negotiable, what is not negotiable, and just lay out the terms piece by piece, every step of the way gaining consensus until hopefully we have a finished agreement. So one of the things that I want to start with is a foundation of what we all understand our objectives to be, and I know that -- you know, I would like the tone to be very positive, and I don't want my questions to be perceived rude. And some of them that I might be asking may seem that way, but DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 n i L� 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 it is only in an effort to dispel rumor and innuendo and for us all to understand that we are, in fact, after the same goal. So with that I have some very basic questions before I start, and you have to bear with me, okay? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Go for it. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. Is it your objective to appoint a permanent police chief? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Yes. MS. ZANNIS: Great. Is it your intention to postpone that until the next election? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. From the last meeting, you know that the trustees had an objective of having an appointment made within 30 to 45 days from the past meeting. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Yes, I'm aware of that. MS. ZANNIS: What is your time frame? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: My time frame is as long as it takes to find the appropriate person and to make an appointment that the Board can vote on DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 • • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 without prejudice. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. So from my perspective, that is a disagreement that we have. That is maybe -- is that a negotiable item for you maybe or not? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: The Board voting without prejudice? MS. ZANNIS: No, your time frame versus -- we obviously have two different time frames in order to get this done. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I -- my intention is to go as quickly as we can while still meeting all the necessary objectives, and one of those objectives certainly is that the Board must be able to vote without prejudice. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: And that we will find the best candidate for the job. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I'm not going to handcuff myself by time. Rather than I will handcuff myself by what the objective is. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. So we have an agreement that we have two different objectives there. One DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 I • • 1�1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 is -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Well, explain to me the difference. MS. ZANNIS: Well, I'm going to speak for myself. My objective is very clear. 30 to 45 days. We move the mountain, we work nonstop until that's done, 30 to 45 days. Done. Whereas your objective is I'll take as long as it takes. And that's different. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I suppose in that perspective, yes, it would be. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. My next question is -- and again you have to bear with me, but is Mr. Carpino the only candidate that you will nominate? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I don't mean to be short, but -- MS. ZANNIS: No, no, that's all that was needed there. Okay. I wanted to take a moment -- and I'm going to give up the floor in just a couple of minutes to the other trustees, but I want to take DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 7 • • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 a moment to read something to you that I got, and I'm going to read an excerpt. It says -- I got this in the mail today actually -- quote, "It seems to me that the latest proposed compromise by Mr. Quinlan is asking the trustees to advocate their responsibility to advice and consent and to blindly approve the president's appointment." Now, that message has been sent to me by an incredible amount of residents, and, you know, I listen to that. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Would you define incredible? MS. ZANNIS: If I get 30 phone calls on a particular issue on average, I've probably gotten 150 on this issue. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: You've received 150 calls on this? MS. ZANNIS: I've received mail, U.S. mail, e -mail. I have received e -mail -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Would you care to share any of it with us? MS. ZANNIS: I can. I see people -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I'd be interested in hearing the opinions. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 I 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. ZANNIS: I see people all day long. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I mean, if people are writing, I'd love to see the opinions. If you've got it, I'd love to see it. MS. ZANNIS: Well, I would think that people would want to -- well, I'm not going to get into that. I'm going to stay focused. Okay. So I truly believe that there is a huge outcry in this community for me not to be a rubber stamp. That message is loud and clear. And I also think that, you know, irregardless of those messages, that you know me well enough that I would not give up my right to advice and consent. I was elected to do a job, and advice and consent is part of that job. And I think that you're asking me not only to betray that constituency but also to compromise my ethics. So I know that your counter - proposal suggested that I do give up my right to advice and consent, and that to me is a nonnegotiable. When it comes to talking about different criteria and how to move this forward, you know, I can be negotiable on time frames and I can be negotiable in other areas, but that I cannot do. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 • 1 • 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 So I guess I'm going to look to you to give me a counteroffer as to what else would be acceptable that we could compromise on. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I am open to any suggestions and willing to listen to anything on -- that would create an environment that no prejudice can be exercised in the voting. And if you can produce that for me, I would love to see it. I would love to have the opportunity to consider it, and I would probably -- not saying I would, but I would probably agree to it, because that was the intent of what I offered back to the Board, was to create a situation where my prejudice and the Board's prejudice was excluded from the selection process. MS. ZANNIS: Define prejudice for me. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: A willingness to single out a single individual, regardless of their ability and others' opinion to do the job. I would consider that prejudice. MS. ZANNIS: So we don't want to single anybody out. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I believe that's what my proposal did, was it turned it over to an outside DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 10 • 1 0 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 firm and allowed an outside firm -- and I believe that's what I said when I stepped back. I believe I said if you guys want to change the firm, I said go ahead, change the firm, with the exception of the candidates that were sitting on that Chiefs Association. I don't think that that was an unreasonable request that they withdraw themselves, since they influence that process, because my whole point has been to remove the bias and let's get somebody -- obviously we have shown ourselves to be incapable as a group to agree on how to do it. I said that all along -- well, not all along, but the last several weeks. And my intent is to remove your bias, your -- speaking "your," as the Board, and mine. I'm willing to remove my bias, too. I believe I've been forthright about that, to remove my bias and let it -- turn it over to an outside firm to tell us who the top three people for this Village are. But at that point then, you know, what you're asking for is veto power, which you asked for in that last, was veto power to go -- well, excuse me. I shouldn't -- I shouldn't say it DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 11 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 0 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 i 24 like that. You were asking for veto power, and that veto power could be used in a prejudicial situation. And regardless of who the number one candidate was -- let's say the number one candidate was Bill Smith and Bill Smith was the guy that I thought was the best person for the job and they said they were the best person for the job, but you guys decided that that person wasn't, well, we're down to three. We're down -- in your counter - proposal, we're down to five. Well, then Bill Smith is out. Well, wait a minute. Who -- what do we know? My point all along is what do we know? What do I know? Asif and John, I believe, has some experience in this. Now, I will grant you that you, me, and the other members of the Board, notwithstanding the two sworn officers, understand administrative needs and community goals and all that. And I think we're all competent enough on that. But what it takes to be a good cop, I don't think any of us can speak very strongly about. I mean, I'm not an officer, you're not, and I don't think the other members of the Board are without -- except for John DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 12 r� 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 So, you know, this outside service firm, if we can agree that they're that competent to find one or find three candidates for us or five -- I think three is enough, but I'll go with five if that's -- if that's a more comfortable fit. But to allow prejudice to enter into the situation at that point I don't think is right because if a person makes it into that realm, the question becomes whether -- really in my mind, the question becomes whether I believe they can work with myself and, more importantly, whether I believe and Rick believes that they can work with him and Rob and the rest of the staff. And that becomes, you know -- but the outside search firm has already told us they are highly qualified against the criteria that we have given them. And that's kind of where I sit. MR. CALEEL: I'd like to say a little something. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Are you done, Elaine, or can you give the floor over to George? MS. ZANNIS: No, I'll give the floor to George. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 13 L� 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 r� 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. CALEEL: Your objection to the Illinois Association of Police Chiefs, as I recall, was that a couple of them were on the administrative -- in the administrative positions were candidates for the job, is that correct? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: That is correct. MR. CALEEL: Well, why don't we excuse them. Why don't we tell them that that's not acceptable. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: That's what I said in my letter. MR. CALEEL: I know. But if we do that, I don't think there's another agency that is qualified to select police chiefs as the association of police chiefs. But I can see your point in that there should not be someone from that organization in a decision - making process that would be telling us who the best people are for the job. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: George, I agree to the Illinois Chiefs. I think the Parr Group -- personally I believe the Parr Group can do a better job, but I agree to the Illinois Chiefs, with that exclusion. I apologize if I -- MR. CALEEL: No, that's -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Sometimes I don't write DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 14 is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 . 12 • 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 as well as I think, or vice versa. MR. CALEEL: I thought you were suggesting another firm. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No, no, no. MR. CALEEL: Well, then if we agree that the people that are in a decision - making process should not be candidates for the job, that would satisfy your feeling that there might be some prejudicial judgment there? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: From the Illinois Chiefs? Yes, it would. MR. CALEEL: All right. So maybe we've agreed on the Illinois Chiefs. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I -- yes, I said that in my letter, that I would be comfortable with that. If we can agree on that exclusion, I -- and I did say in my letter I felt Parker was a better selection; however, I certainly am not going to discredit the Illinois Chiefs. They are highly noted, and I'm sure they can do a fine job. MR. CALEEL: Well, then if they're going to select for us from our pool of candidates, the one thing that I agree with Trustee Zannis is that I would never give up my right to advice and consent, DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 15 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 0 12 • 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 alp 21 22 23 24 and I don't think there is anybody here that would. So is that a problem for you? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: That becomes a problem for me on the basis that we're turning over all the authority to an outside firm, which means I'm giving up some of my statutory right because really my statutory right, as you know, is to bring you the candidates -- MR. CALEEL: Right. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: -- in any form that I choose. Well, I shouldn't say it like that. If I'm going to spend money, I need your approval. But we've obviously got some serious disagreement. And I am concerned that there is prejudice that exists on the Board, that regardless of how some individuals may finish in a polling, that those -- that those Board members may choose to exercise prejudice. And that's what I would like to avoid. And I am open to suggestions to how we can avoid that prejudice. MR. CALEEL: Well, you call it prejudice. Perhaps it's judgment. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I don't know if we want DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 16 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 13 14 • 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 to have this discussion on the open floor, George. I'm open to it, but I don't think it's a good idea. If we're going to debate that, it might -- it might warrant discussing it first. MR. CALEEL: Well, I think that this all comes down to one point, and that is that to avoid embarrassing candidates and everything else, there should be agreement between the Board and the president on the selection of the individuals so that when it comes to an open meeting, there isn't a turnover. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Well, there should -- I would hope that we could come to a consensus agreement. MR. CALEEL: Well, then, if the Police Chiefs submit to us five or three, whatever the case may be, we ought to be able to go into closed session and come up with a candidate. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: If you'd like us to -- if you'd like the Village to engage in -- with the Illinois Chiefs and three or five, I don't care. I'm with the -- what I said in my letter, which I think you'd agree to -- I need to hear the voice of the others -- but I'd be happy to begin that DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 17 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 • 24 engagement if you think that that might help us move the process forward. MR. CALEEL: We presented it. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: And it at least gets us halfway there. MR. CALEEL: Right. And I think your main concern was that some of the people who are in a decision - making process there were candidates for the job, and I think that's a justifiable worry because ordinarily someone recuses themselves when they're involved personally in that sort of a situation. But from my point of view, I think that we have the Illinois Police Chiefs, and let's keep it the way it was, select five candidates. They don't have to rank them as far as I'm concerned. They can just give us the five. And we can then go into closed session, and we can select. And we can tell you in closed session whether that meets with our advice and consent. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: May I consider that a motion? MS. ZANNIS: No. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I was talking to George. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 • 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. ZANNIS: Oh. MR. CALEEL: Well, I heard her, of course. Do you have an alternate suggestion? MS. KORIN: Well, if we can, I think it would be good to hear from all of the trustees in terms of how they feel because there's a couple different issues here, as you pointed out. Before we start making motions, I'd like to speak, and John probably has something to say. Are you done? MR. CALEEL: I'm done. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Elaine, are you done? MS. ZANNIS: Yeah. I give up my floor. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Okay. We've got two. Which order? Ladies first. MS. KORIN: Okay. Kevin, the word prejudice is -- I think it's a very -- it carries a rather negative tone. And, you know, your definition of what prejudice was was to, you know, single out one individual person and not give them the consideration that you would give others. If we were truly to go about this process without prejudice, we wouldn't remove DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 19 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 anybody from the pool, including the two people who sit on the Board of the Illinois Police Chiefs. I'm sure it is quite possible for them to put together a group who would handle this process that would not include those two people. One of those people we have interviewed; one we have not. So I can't speak to knowing the qualities of both of them. But, you know, to say that since they are on the Board of Illinois Chiefs of Police, they should be removed, in my eyes is a very prejudicial statement because, you know, if you -- if I sit on the board of a company, you know, oftentimes when somebody is asked to join a board, they're asked to join because they're a qualified individual, because they bring something to the table, because they can bring some -- some experience, thought, whatever, to benefit the group. So to automatically discount people just because of that, I perceive that as prejudicial. Now, again Elaine was talking about items that are negotiable or nonnegotiable, and, I mean, anything is open for discussion as far as I'm concerned. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 20 is 1 ]� C� 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PRESIDENT QUINLAN: May I stop you for a second? May I ask you a question? When Brian Clingen was appointed to the Police and Fire Pension Board, did you recuse yourself? MS. KORIN: Yes. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Why? MS. KORIN: Because I felt -- I wanted everybody to know he was my brother -in -law. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: That it might appear that you might be prejudiced in your decision, that you might be biased towards your brother -in -law? MS. KORIN: Well, I wouldn't say -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I don't think it's any fault that's he's your brother -in -law. I think Brian is a very bright and intelligent man. I'm glad to have him serving with us, but -- MS. KORIN: Well, again the use of the word prejudice, I had no prejudice against him. I certainly had a personal bias towards him just because I know him and I know his abilities. So I'm not asking that these two people be included in the decision - making process, but you're asking that they be removed from the DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 21 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 13 14 15 16 • 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 possibility of being considered a candidate just because they're involved with an association that serves their industry, and that doesn't seem fair to me. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I think their influence over the decision - making process would be too great because of their association with it, and that's, with all due respect, two arguments. That is going to be a condition of my agreement with the Illinois Chiefs, although I do accept them outside of that. MS. KORIN: Okay. So that's one of your conditions? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Yes, ma'am. MS. KORIN: But when you're speaking specifically about prejudices, my point being that if we're truly going to have all prejudice removed, everybody gets considered by an independent party, you remove two people because, you know, they happen to be on the Board, there are probably people who are in this pool who may have served in various ways, whether it be on committees or something else. I mean, the Illinois Police Chiefs Association is a large group, and it's an association that serves this industry. So they DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 22 0 1 • 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 probably, you know, know a lot of police chiefs and /or police, you know -- upper management police officers. So my point being made that the -- you know, where you were choosing to use the word prejudice -- and if you're going to use it unilaterally, you have to look at everything because you're asking us not to have prejudice here. But at the same point, you're inflicting a prejudice on two people because of their association with this group. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: If you wish to call it that, I'll accept that term, but quite frankly, I think it's removing any bias from the decision - making process, which I said all along is my objective, is to remove as much bias from the decision - making process as possible. MS. KORIN: Okay. My second point I want to make is that, you know, the Illinois state statute is what it is, and, you know, we've come to an impasse here and are looking at alternative processes to follow versus what specifically is outlined in the statute. And that's certainly our right to do that. A lot of communities use outside groups to help them with hiring processes. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 23 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 But my point is that, you know, the democratic process as it is and as it's laid out by the state statutes has checks and balances. I mean, it gives you as the president of the Village the right to appoint whoever you want. It gives the Board members as Board members the right to advice and consent. Now, I don't want to sound flippant because I don't mean to be that way, but, you know, frankly, it's not -- it's not your place, I don't think, to say, well -- for you to make judgment whether I have a bias or a prejudice or not. It is your place to do what you think is best as the president. It's my place to do what I think is best as the trustee. And I think we all have our own built -in biases or prejudices just because of what we've gone through and who we know and what we've experienced. So to a certain point I can understand you not wanting there to be prejudice, and I think bringing in a third party to create a pool from which this Board could choose from, I think that's a -- philosophically, I'm okay with that. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 24 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I think that's a wise choice because it puts a qualified pool in our lap and there cannot be any claims of, you know, so- and -so knew so- and -so and so they got in here, or he's a friend of his and he got in here. I mean, supposedly if we hire an independent party, it will be in the qualified pool of people. And then at that point the democratic process takes over. You have your right to appoint, and we have a right to advice and consent. So, you know, you and I had spoke on the phone after you sent out your memo, and I indicated, as Elaine and George have, that I will not give up my vote. I believe that's one of the main reasons I was elected. Now, Elaine said she's heard from probably 150 people. I have not heard from that many people, but I have probably talked to between 25 and 30, many of which was over this weekend. And, you know, I've had people -- total strangers come up to me who have seen -- either been at Board meetings or seen them on TV saying, "Don't give up your vote. That's why I voted you -- that's why I elected you in office." DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 25 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 • 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 And that's their personal opinion, but it's also my opinion. And it supports what I believe as being, you know, my responsibility as a trustee. So -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: What was my response to you on the phone? MS. KORIN: Your response was you wanted to eliminate prejudice. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: And didn't I ask you to, if you could, offer me any suggestion that would allow us to do that and I would be willing to hear it? MS. KORIN: Okay. I guess my response at this point is it should not be your concern about prejudice. I think that, sure, in a perfect world, that would be great. Nobody has any prejudices. Everybody is completely objective. But in reality, everybody has prejudices, everybody has biases, and that's why there's a seven - member Board. That's why it's your responsibility to nominate and it's our responsibility to advice and consent, and -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Remember the definition that goes with the advice and consent. MS. KORIN: I don't have the state statute in front of me. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 26 • 1 0 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. ZANNIS: I don't know that there is one. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Yes, there is. There's a very clear definition of what you advise and consent on. And it is my belief -- and I will share that at a later date -- that I believe some members of the Board are not willing to vote based on that statute. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. You should forward me the statute. I have read it -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I'd be happy to share it with you. MS. ZANNIS: I've read it a thousand times, but you should forward it to me. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I would be happy to forward it to you. We've read it at the Board meeting, at pretty much every one of the last Board meetings, but -- MS. ZANNIS: The one about merit and -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I'll get a copy sent out to every member of the Board. Let's see. Office created appointment, the office of police chief of the police department of the -- MS. ZANNIS: Are you reading a state statute or Village code? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: This is Village code. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 27 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 I - ] 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 we 21 22 23 24 MS. ZANNIS: Thank you. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Oh, do we have state statute down here? You don't need to go get it. This is a special meeting. We're not going to horse around. We'll just have it prepared. Rick, could you make sure that a copy of that is sent to the Board tomorrow, please? A copy of it will be sent to you tomorrow. MS. KORIN: Well, we also had -- during our discussion, you know, I said you might perceive one of the Board members as having a prejudice or a bias, but, you know, you would have your own prejudice or biases as well. And so it's impossible to remove all the prejudices and bias from the -- from the process. And frankly, you know, we can read Village code; we can read state statute. It doesn't say Board members must remove all prejudice from their advice and consent. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No, it says Board members must vote on this particular statute. But we'll get that out to everybody on the Board so we can have this discussion at the next meeting. MS. KORIN: Well, the whole point of having DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 • • t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 this meeting is so we can come to some definitive end here so we can proceed. MR. CALEEL: I'd like to add on the bias and prejudice. I think we would act with our judgment -- with our best judgment in regard to these matters, and that's what we're supposed to do, use good judgment. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I would certainly hope SO. Asif? MR. YUSUF: If I may -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Wait a minute. Let me go down the line. All right. Elaine's done. Susan, are you done? MS. KORIN: Uhm -hmm. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Okay. George? MR. CALEEL: I'm done. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: John, you haven't been forgotten. I'll finish with you, but I'm going to go to Asif and then come back. MR. YUSUF: Let me say that, number one, I speak for myself. I don't speak for the rest of the Board; I don't speak for you. I speak in the capacity that I've been elected to. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 29 Is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L� 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I think we've done a pretty good job of narrowing down the pool already and selecting people for interview. We've been able to choose the best of the best, and we've got eight or nine. And I don't see the need to re- create that process. I think we should look at them. I'm certainly capable of being objective and fair and rating people on their qualifications and their ability to do the job and nothing else. What I ask you, Kevin, is what can this Board do to allay those fears and convince you that they're willing to act in a manner without undue prejudice or bias in a fair and appropriate manner? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Show me some of the proof that you handcuff yourselves that you can't vote with prejudice, that you have to vote specifically on those merits, and you -- Asif, you know why I'm asking that question back. MR. YUSUF: I have a pretty good idea, but at the same time I look at it this way. If I give up my right to vote on this, what I'm telling the people of Oak Brook is I can't do the job I'm elected to do. I have to turn that over to somebody DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 30 • 1 • 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 else. That's not a message I want to send. I think I'm -- I'm capable of being fair and objective in this process. I would hope that every one of my colleagues is, and -- and I think we have to convince you that we're able to do that, whatever that takes, or at least have a discussion towards that end. This is the job we signed up for. We should do it. I think we've got a good pool to choose from. I think we need to do what we need to do to ensure that everybody is as comfortable with how this is going to proceed. And you need to put forth the man that you think is the -- man or woman that you think is the best for the job. I will look at it objectively. I would ask each of my colleagues to pledge to look at that individual objectively. And if we have to have a discussion about those three statutory criteria and how this person rates based on that, we should have that discussion in closed session. I want the best person for the job, nothing more, nothing less. I would hope that that is the goal of everybody here. I don't want to give up my right to vote because I think I can do the DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 31 r� • 2 3 4 i 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 job. I think you can do your job. I think all of us should be able to do our job, and we all have to answer for our decisions to our constituents. They're the ones that put us here. They're the ones who can remove us. There is some subjectivity in the process. Part of it's a personality thing. When you interview a candidate, you have to ask yourself how well can I work with this person? How well will I be able to communicate? Is their management style something that I feel is a good fit for the Village? There is some subjectivity. It's not necessarily prejudice. On the other hand, there may be grounds where you feel there is a clear -cut prejudice and somebody's not going to get a fair shot at this. I agree with you wholeheartedly that must be removed. But I ask everybody here to rise to the challenge of doing that, between the seven of us that are here, and coming to that conclusion. I'm done. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Thanks. John, last but not forgotten. MR. CRAIG: Well, I have a question. I guess DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 32 r� • t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I would ask Rick, what does the law say that a temporary appointment in the capacity of a police chief or a fire chief, how long is that for? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Do you want me to answer it, or do you want to answer it? MR. BOEHM: I don't believe it states simply in the state law that there is a term. MR. CRAIG: I'm sorry. MR. BOEHM: I don't believe it states in the state law. I believe it could go with the office, with the president. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: By the way, just for the record, within the Village of Oak Brook, the last temporary appointment of that nature lasted over nine months. MR. CRAIG: I see. So it could continue for years. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Theoretically, yes. MR. CRAIG: I did want to say that last week I called Chief Carpino, and I asked to -- well, I called him once. I didn't catch him. The second time I called him, and I did find him. And I told him I'd like to sit down and meet with him because I really don't know him, and I want to know him before DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 33 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 0 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I make any decisions up or down. And I feel that that's important, to find out who he is or what he's about. I haven't been able to do that at this point, so I'm still at square one, but I'm trying. I think going beyond that, I'm always against spending money if we don't have to. And the Illinois Police Chiefs -- and I will -- if you'll remember, I was the one who told you about the Illinois Police Chiefs Association. They want $8,000 to do this job. I'm rather inclined to feel that Trustee Asif Yusuf is right, that we are elected to make a decision. We have a large list of qualified people. I don't see that we need to go outside. I want to be able to exercise my right to vote and to tell you who I think would be the best one. And with that in mind, that's part of the reason why I wanted to meet Chief Carpino. I don't -- I've never met the man. I don't know him. So without some knowledge of who he is and what he's about, I can't say yes or no. But I think that we can come down to two or three good candidates from the eligibility list or the list we've compiled, and I'm sure that DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 34 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 there's one that's going to be head and shoulders above the others. And we can make a decision and one that will benefit in the end Oak Brook. That's what I have to say. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Thank you, John. Go ahead, George. MR. CALEEL: Just about cost, if you look at the cost of the legal fees that were charged to this Village on the part of Mr. Kubiesa because of a discussion and the need for the opinions as they relate to the temporary appointment of the police chief, you'll find that $8,000 is a bargain. MR. CRAIG: 8,000. MR. CALEEL: Because the legal fees exceed that by a considerable amount. MR. CRAIG: Oh, I'm sure. And going along with that, I'm not in favor of spending money for attorneys either. I'm not -- I feel that that's something that we have to address, and that's something that -- and the longer we keep -- and this is just one little item compared to some of the other items that we're being charged for. And I think we have to review where that money's going. I can't understand how we -- DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 35 0 1 2 3 4 5 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 • 24 we've gone from 9,000 a month to 21,000 a month in legal fees. And it's something that's amiss. And we have to get to the bottom of it. But going back to my original statement, I do want to know all the candidates before I make a decision, and I want to be able to say I really met with this man. I feel he has this attribute and he lacks this and he's head and shoulders above this fella so that when we do come to an agreement, it's one that we pick the best possible candidate for the Village of Oak Brook for the police chief. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Thanks, John. MR. YUSUF: I -- if I may -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Please do. MR. YUSUF: I think it's incumbent upon everybody to know the choices you're considering and to meet with those people, interview them, have a very thorough and informed opinion of them based on some interaction and the opportunity to ask questions. I certainly wouldn't want to be in the position of voting for somebody without having met them and thoroughly apprised myself of their abilities. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 36 r� 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 r� 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 i� 24 MR. CALEEL: I think But when we were discussing Chiefs as an outside group, they made the selection, we interviewing each of the ca: selected. we all agree with that. the Illinois Police we decided that after would each be adidates that they had PRESIDENT QUINLAN: May I ask this? Is there a consensus amongst the Board to hire an outside firm -- and I am open to either the Parr Group or the Illinois Chiefs with the statements that I made on my letter back to the trustees -- to go to an outside firm to at least give us some advice? John, I agree with you. I don't like to be willy -nilly with our cash. However, I would also say that if there is a time to make an investment into ourselves, this may be the best time. I apologize to the press. You guys will make a little less money that way because there will be less stories to write. But this may be the time to make that investment, whether it's -- what is it -- just under 4,000 with the Parr Group or $8,000 with the Illinois Chiefs. MR. CALEEL: Well, I think the difference there is that the Illinois Chiefs did the background DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 37 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 checks and a lot of other things. The Parr Group wanted us to do it as a Village. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Yes, the net -- thank you, George. That's a very good point. That's an excellent point. The net cost to the Village really probably is the same because we would have had to have spent -- it's probably -- we're probably better off on cost and saving our personnel basis -- Rich is probably sitting there going, Kevin, keep going. I like the way you're headed -- for our staff because in the overtime cost, we would probably end up eating it up and burning some of our people out pretty severely with the background checks. MR. CALEEL: Can I just add just one additional question, and that is in relation to Trustee Korin's statement. Would you be comfortable if we asked those people who are candidates not to participate in the selection process, or do you still think that there might be some bias there? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: May I -- I hate to ask a question with a question, but I'll do it anyhow. MR. CALEEL: Go right ahead. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 S . 1 2 3 i 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PRESIDENT QUINLAN: If you were me, what would your answer be? MR. CALEEL: Well, you see, I don't even know who the candidates are that you're referring to because you did the check and I did not. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Well, I can't reveal the name in public, but I'll write it down for you and pass it because we agreed to keep the names -- Rick, can you write the other one because I don't remember the other gentleman's name. MR. CALEEL: Were there two or three? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Two that I'm aware of. There might be a third. I know Susan is aware of who the two are. MR. YUSUF: I guess the question is if we go ahead and do this and we spend the $8,000, then are we sitting here in the same situation where we're going to have another discussion about how we're going to choose from the five? Are we going to have a vote? Are we not going to have a vote? I mean, I'd rather clear the air on how the procedure is going to play itself out completely before we go and spend $8,000. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Well, I'm going to tell DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 39 0 1 • 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 you this. MR. YUSUF: Yes, sir. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: It's pretty apparent to me that we're not going to be able to come to an agreement on the second half of the process tonight. However, I am encouraged that we are moving forward. And you know what -- and, Elaine, I understand, 30, 45 days, and I said that my timetable was unbarred. I'll take baby steps over no steps every day of the week. And if it's $8,000 to take the first of the steps to get us down a path that we think is the right path, I think it's a good investment. And we'll do -- we'll do one less leaf pickup -- sorry Fullersburg -- it was a joke for anybody that lives in Fullersburg. It was a joke, okay? And, George, too, you know. But, I mean, if you put it in the greater scheme of things, I know -- and I'm not -- again, I know where there's 50 cent draft beer, okay? I'm not freewheeling with money; but at the same time, if it's a good time to make an investment and get us to stop, all of us, to stop the stoppage of government, then it may prove cheaper to make the DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 • • C� 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 investment now than not to have. MR. YUSUF: You know, at the risk of violating a law possibly -- and I don't know. I'll make a wager with you. MS. ZANNIS: I don't think at this table, Asif. . MR. YUSUF: I'll make a gentleman's bet with you with no monetary wager. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I don't accept, but -- MR. YUSUF: I will make a prediction that the five people they choose will be amongst the people that we've interviewed. I think we've done a very good job in narrowing the pool down. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I think you're probably right. But you know what? I think all seven of us need some verification of that. And I'll remind you also -- let's not forget this point -- that every other -- well, not every other, but the vast majority of other villages, when they face a position of this magnitude being open, they hire an outside firm. We had the Mack Group. They did it pro bono. They did not do the job all the way through because we asked them not to. For the DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 41 is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 13 14 15 • 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 record, it wasn't because they weren't willing to, but we asked them -- we asked them to stop. So -- and the Mack Group said to us -- I can't say that, MS. ZANNIS: I don't think so. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: It is rumor to me that in the vast majority of these situations, that an outside search firm, based on what the Parr Group sent to us, they go out, and they narrow the field down to three and then present those candidates to the president and to the Board, or to the mayor and to the Board, whatever the situation might be. We never spent that money, and certainly we would have been entitled to and rightful to. So we're talking about doing it towards a longer, more drawn -out process than we did at the beginning. That's money that we probably should have spent anyhow, and I'm not trying to make a case for throwing money away. MR. YUSUF: I'm not saying you are. MS. ZANNIS: Kevin, let me ask you this. If the consensus of this Board were to not hire a third party, would you move forward in the process? DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 42 • • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No. MR. YUSUF: Would there be any conditions which we could bring about under which you'd be willing to move forward the process in the absence of a third party? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Possibly, but I don't know what they would be. MS. ZANNIS: Wow. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I would have to hear them. MR. CALEEL: Believe me when I say that you're going to save time and money by going with a third party because if you haven't looked over those legal bills, I would suggest that you do it. MS. ZANNIS: I did look over the legal bills, and I agree with you that the 8,000 is very well spent. You know, what Kevin just said was if we don't hire a third party, we will not move forward. So that's a nonnegotiable on his part, and I think that we need to be responsive to that. So with that, do we have consensus? MR. CALEEL: All except on that one point that Trustee Korin brought up. And I see the names. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 43 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 However, we have no guarantee that they're going to pick these people. MR. CRAIG: May I see the names? I haven't seen the names. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: My apologies to the public. We made an agreement to all candidates that submitted their names to us for consideration that we would keep them private. Many of them are employed in other situations and do not wish to risk their current employment situation. MS. ZANNIS: Let's assume that we agree on a third party. Let's not say what the terms and conditions of the agreement, but let's assume for a second we have that consensus. One of the things that you have asked us is whatever it gets whittled down to, when you make the appointment, that we accept that appointment. Okay. So we have to give up advice and consent. MR. CALEEL: MS. ZANNIS: MR. YUSUF: MS. ZANNIS: MR. CALEEL: No, he didn't say that. Yeah. Yeah, he did. Yeah, he did. Is that part of it? DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 a. 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 • 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No, no, I'm sorry, George. I think you're asking a different question than what Elaine is asking. You were talking about let's go ahead with the Police Chiefs -- or a search firm. Police Chiefs seems to be the one that we're circling towards to do the search and at least give us the -- whittle it down to three, five, whatever the agreement is. I don't care. What Elaine was talking about was the other half of what my alternative to the trustees' alternative was. And what I said earlier is I don't think we're in a position to come to agreement on that. However, whatever results come from this search, we probably should have engaged in a professional search. We probably should now anyhow. And it just may give us some good guidance for future direction. Whether we can agree on the other half of things yet or not, we can agree on half. That's a step. MR. CALEEL: Well, excuse me, but are you saying that you want us to give up our advice and consent? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: That's what I asked for, but I'm not asking you to agree to that at this DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 45 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 moment. What I did was -- what I thought we did was -- maybe I'm wrong, but what I thought we did was we separated the discussion about whether we were going to have Police Chiefs do a search for us and the voting process. And we said, all right, let's go ahead and get the Police Chiefs going, and we'll figure out the other half. MR. CALEEL: Well, I can tell you at this point I'm not willing to give up my advice and consent, and I think I heard that from down there. I don't know if any of the other trustees are willing to do it, but I think it has to be unanimous, and so -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: It does have to be unanimous. MS. ZANNIS: Let my ask you this. In a vein of compromise, George, bear with me. Okay, if we give up our advice and consent, are you willing to do the same in trade? For example, instead of them whittling it down to three, they whittle it down to one and we accept whoever it is? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No. MS. ZANNIS: Now, why? DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 is. • • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PRESIDENT QUINLAN: And I said that before, and I don't think that's right because you have to be aware -- MS. ZANNIS: But, Kevin, you're asking us to give up something. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Excuse me. If you can allow me to finish, please. Thank you. When you get down to whether or not they meet all the criteria we put forward and they get down to those three, what is the one criteria left that no outside agency can get at? What's the one thing that they can't judge? MS. ZANNIS: I'm waiting for an answer. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I was just wondering if you -- MS. ZANNIS: I'm not going to spoon feed it. Come on. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Come on, play. Now you're being funny. MS. ZANNIS: I know. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: The one thing they can't judge is whether or not this person is a personality fit with the people that they have to work with. MS. ZANNIS: But you're -- DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 47 i1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Wait. Wait. MS. ZANNIS: Yeah, yeah. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: At this point we will have narrowed down that they meet all the criteria that every one of these trustees and myself has said we need for the Village of Oak Brook, good knowledge about how to work with high -end retail, with Fortune 500 companies, with a high -end and demanding residency, and you should be demanding. MS. ZANNIS: And you are demanding. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: You know, whatever criteria we lay out, strong officer on DARE program to protect our kids. All of the things that we want, expect, and demand that a police chief be able to run that department and deliver to us, they can determine those things. They cannot determine the personality fit. You know what can determine the personality fit, are the people that this person's going to have to work with. MR. CALEEL: That includes the Board. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I'm pointing at him, and the other departments. And, yes, they do have to work with the Board. And I said before, and I said it in my DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 letter, too, that I would certainly expect this person to meet -- and if you guys came roaring out of the cage and said, Kevin, this guy is an idiot, I couldn't stand talking to him, there's no way we can have him going to the homeowners' association, president's meeting and talk on our behalf, I would certainly -- I'm not a complete -- we have had our disagreements -- we'll have more -- but I'm not -- you know, I think I've proven I don't completely turn a deaf ear. MS. ZANNIS: But what you're asking us to say or to agree to is only you can make that choice. That's your ace in your back pocket. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Elaine, at a certain point, somebody has to have the executive authority, and there is a reason why there is only one person elected to that position. MS. ZANNIS: But there's also a reason why you have a legislative body, and there's a reason why seven of us are elected to this position. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Compromise is about giving. MS. ZANNIS: And I'm asking you to give. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: You've heard what I've DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 • 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 got to give. If you've got another system by which prejudice can be taken out of the system -- and we will have a longer talk about prejudice at the next meeting. I promise you that -- MS. ZANNIS: I think they're biases. I think prejudice is a loaded word, and I think bias is better. Anyway -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: You may call it -- MR. YUSUF: I may suggest that if we need to clear up any misunderstandings about people's misconceptions or possible prejudices, we have a discussion in closed session to determine how people are able to evaluate candidates and that process of doing that. I think that's something we can do in closed session, but I'd just as soon hash that out today. MS. ZANNIS: All right. Let me ask this question. If we were to go with the Illinois Chiefs of Police, you perceive a bias and would ask a couple of their directors to step down from the process, do you perceive a bias in having Mr. Carpino be on the list of candidates? DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 50 1 • Ir- L-1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No. MS. ZANNIS: Do you perceive that he is at an unfair advantage against other candidates because of his experience in the past three months working in the department? I mean, he knows everybody. He knows Oak Brook. He knows the systems. He knows the cops. He knows the cars. He knows the residents. His daughter works here. He is very much a part of this system. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Excuse me. His daughter is a summer employee. MS. ZANNIS: I'm sorry. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: At BNT. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: A $6 -an -hour employee, Elaine. I mean, come on. MS. ZANNIS: Absolutely. But you know what? He is a part of our -- he is a part of our community. Does that put him at an advantage? I think -- I think there's a bias. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: With an outside search firm? I don't believe so. MS. ZANNIS: I think there's a bias there, Kevin. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 51 • • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Guess what? MS. ZANNIS: You don't agree. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I don't agree, and I've got the cards. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. So if we give up -- and you're what? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I've got the cards. MS. ZANNIS: That's what I just said. You hold that back card in your pocket. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I'm offering you a compromise. MS. ZANNIS: And I'm trying to help facilitate a meeting of -- it's a give and take, a give and take, and I'm saying to you, will you give this, and you said no. And I'm saying, okay. Now, will you give that? Now I'm going to ask you, will you give Carpino? If we have to give up two people, will you give Carpino? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Let me explain something very emphatically so I can make it very clear, for everyone here, for everyone on the tape, and everyone on the Board, I will not allow any prejudice against John Carpino. If you show me a DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 52 • 1 • 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 valid reason why he is not qualified, I have offered up an outside search firm to do the search which removes any prejudice of mine towards this person. People are accusing me of having too much loyalty. I've heard that comment again tonight towards me: What is my loyalty to this man? My loyalty is that I believe he is the best candidate. However, I have also said that my judgment may not or probably should not be the only one heard. But I believe that there is prejudice against him. And I think that was just witnessed right here. Please no comments from the audience. I have offered up an outside search firm to do the search independent of myself, independent of this Board, to come up with the list of candidates. If John Carpino, Bill Smith, John Jones, or whoever, isn't on the list, then they are not on the list. But if they are, what is the problem? Why aren't they good enough then? If they are considered the best by an outside search firm, then why not? MS. ZANNIS: Well, then I would expect the DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 53 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 • 12 • 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 two presiding Board members to be allowed the same courtesy because certainly they're not biased. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: They go to the Parr Group which they have no influence over, or offer me a third group to do the search that has the same qualifications as those two that they have no influence over. I will accept that as well. I am trying to remove all bias. MS. ZANNIS: But, Kevin, I have -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Elaine, give me a break. They sit -- one of them was a past president. I said that in my letter, and you know it. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. Let's hold the tone down a little bit, and let's recompose, and let me rephrase it a different way. If every time you and I disagree about something and you pull out the card of bias or prejudice, you can do that whenever you want, and all the constituencies out there are not going to be represented because you're going to cry bias and you're going to cry prejudice. And then what happens to the process? I mean, you know, tomorrow it will be the Sports Core, and if I want to keep it open or DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 54 • • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 closed or I want to give it -- I want to put out an RFP, you're going to say you're biased? No, I'm serious, Kevin. At what point is bias representing a constituency? At what point does bias become prejudice, and at what point does all process stop because you're going to cry bias or prejudice? I mean, it's just as incumbent upon you to come up with a third party. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: If you would like me to find a third party, I would be happy to do it here. MS. ZANNIS: No, I want it solved here and now. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: It ain't going to get solved here and now. MS. ZANNIS: Well, you are putting the brakes on it. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: You're darn right I am because it's not the right answer. I am not going to just come up with an answer out of convenience. MS. ZANNIS: I'm not looking for convenience, Kevin, but I'm looking to resolve a conflict. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Well, sometimes resolution takes time. MS. ZANNIS: But I don't see you taking DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 55 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I have offered you what I'm willing to do with the Illinois Police. I was the one that came to you with the compromise. You guys gave me an alternative. I responded to it. I am waiting to hear your final response to that. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. Let's go back to work, and let's say are you capable or is there a way that we can come up with a solution where six people do not give up advice and consent? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: That's a given, all right? MS. ZANNIS: That's a given. That's a nonnegotiable. Is there something that will allow you to make an appointment and still allow us advice and consent? That maybe is the bottom line. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: And as I stated earlier this evening, you come up with a way that refuses to allow you to utilize prejudice in your decision - making process, and I would most likely agree to that. MS. KORIN: Can I ask a question, which is a little out of the blue here? DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 56 1* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L� • 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 You made a statement earlier, you know, we were working with the Mack Group and that we said, okay, we're done working with you. I don't know if you guys heard about this, but I was never told that we were done working with them. They just sort of faded out. And maybe you had a conversation with them, maybe you had a conversation with them, but I don't know why they faded out. I don't know if they were asked to, at what point -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I can answer the question. I just -- when we expanded the search, I cut them off. And then as things progressed the way they did after the first of July, I had not reengaged them. I don't know. I would presume they may be willing to come back and do it again or continue working with us. I don't know. MR. CALEEL: No, when they made their search, they came up with 18 candidates, which is almost a -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Well, that's what was sent to them. MR. CALEEL: Well, that's almost humorous because when we advertised for village manager, we DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 57 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 got 60 or 70. And after we advertised again, put it on the Internet and so forth, we got 40 some total, so that there's a better pool from which to select. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Asif, may I ask you a question? MR. YUSUF: Yes. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Out of the pool of candidates that were surfaced to the trustees, surfaced by the trustees to me, without naming the names, how many of the names were from the original 18? MR. YUSUF: I'm not sure, but I believe -- you mean out of the four choices you were given? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Yes. MR. YUSUF: I believe three out of the four, if I'm not mistaken. I think we had a great pool, and I think the original pool was the cream of the crop. The other people were also qualified and did a fine job. But if we're looking for the best of the best, I think we got it in the original search. And I said that from day one; we should start interviewing these people and then determine if we need to expand the search. And if we did not DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 • C� 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 have that delay, we wouldn't be facing the need for a temporary appointment and this whole situation. But that's water under the bridge. MS. KORIN: That doesn't matter. I was asking about the Mack Group because I didn't know at what point they left the scene. I do think, though, that probably two were from the first and two were from the second. MR. YUSUF: It's possible. For some reason I was thinking that it was three and one, but -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Susan, if you would like to direct the Village manager to reengage the Mack Group, I would not -- MS. KORIN: I'm not saying that. I know they were brought up tonight. I don't know at what point they exited. I think that your nonnegotiable is that you want a third party to create a pool from which to choose from. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I think that's the fairest way. MS. KORIN: And that you have the right to choose. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I have a final three or DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 59 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 five -- you guys pick the number. I said that. MS. KORIN: Well, yeah, but we create a pool. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: And, remember, I have to pick out of that three. I can't go outside that pool. I can't say, you know what? I don't like any of the three. I've got to pick somebody out of three. MS. KORIN: Well, traveling down this road, engaging in this process, we as a Board would agree -- it would have to be unanimous -- that out of that pool that was selected to us, come hell or high water, we would have a police chief, with the obvious criteria being that -- or the obvious situation being that the criteria that was used to find these people has created a very qualified candidate in each one of the people that was chosen, so we would, you know, be okay whether we went with one or five or three or two or whatever. Okay. So your nonnegotiable is that you want a qualified independent party to create a pool. I am hearing that the Board's nonnegotiable is that they will not give up their right to vote. I then hear from you that if there DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 is a way in which -- and I will use your words -- prejudice can be removed, then you will accept that. Now, that's a very subjective statement. And if that were to be achieved, you would have to share with us how that was to be happening because it's not -- I mean, hiring a firm, you do it. Coming up with a pool, you get it. Choose a name, you do it. And then you are passing judgment on how we are going to, you know, advise and consent. So we -- in order to move this process forward, how -- what criteria are you going to use to determine whether there is prejudice in our process? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Show me where you have to vote on the -- MS. KORIN: I'm asking you, Kevin, because this is your nonnegotiable. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Wait a minute. I don't have an answer to your question. I'm just telling you, I surfaced an answer once before. You say that you don't accept that answer. That's fine. Give me another answer that meets that same objective is what I'm saying back to you. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 61 1* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 0 12 • 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. KORIN: What I'm saying to you, though, is when we're breaking this down, we're trying to break down this process piece by piece so that we can come to areas of agreement and /or areas of disagreement. So I don't know that we necessarily have a buy in from John right now about the third party. But if we will -- just say if we did, we have agreement on a third party, we agree either three or five names; we agree you get to choose one of the names. Now, one of your nonnegotiables is a very subjective process, and it cannot be my -- you know, I can't tell you how to judge me. I mean, you have to tell me what you would deem acceptable. Otherwise how -- I mean, what are we to bring to you? I'm at a complete loss. MR. CALEEL: If I might answer that, when you have them select a pool of qualified candidates, we assume they're all qualified. Then comes the subjective part as to whether you think this individual is a good fit in terms of the Village and his ability to have other talents other than he's been a police chief for X number of years and so DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 62 0 1 • 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 So that is subjective, and that's where I think we must make a decision, as based on if we think this individual is the best candidate of the group, if this individual makes the best fit for the community. So -- MS. ZANNIS: How about this? How about if it pared down to the three or five, whatever the magic number is, and then of those, of those Kevin would appoint and then we would advise and consent. MR. CALEEL: That's right. That's the way it has to be. MS. ZANNIS: And that way one out of the three or one out of the five is for sure going to make it? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I don't think so. And like I said, we'll have a little talk about prejudice at the next meeting. MS. ZANNIS: Kevin, I'm going to have to make a very formal statement that you refrain from using that word. It is a very loaded word. I don't know why you insist on it. There are biases out there. Prejudice appears to be something other than what it is, and I do not like that tone at this table. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 63 • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Bias. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I appreciate your comment. The Board will vote based on merit, fitness, and experience. Nowhere in there does it say the best candidate. It says based on whether they have the merit, fitness, and experience to do the job. That is what the trustees' job, based on state statute is and based on Village ordinance is. A copy of state statute will be given out to the trustees again. That is what you vote on. MS. ZANNIS: Define merit. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: And right now we'll call it bias for the moment. MS. ZANNIS: Thank you. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I think there are some very serious biases against some individuals that should they be found to be the best candidate, that they will not be voted on on those criteria. You show me a system where the biases do not come into play, and I will agree to it. Until then, we do not have a compromised agreement on that side. However, if we can all agree that we do need the help of some outside consultant to at DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 1 • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 least whittle a field down for us, I have said for -- it's been the last half hour now -- that let's go ahead and do that and take the first step and see if we can get through the first step. MS. ZANNIS: All right. How about this? MR. CALEEL: My question is this. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: And that might remove your concerns with biases. MS. ZANNIS: How about this? We've got three potentials. We've got the Parr Group, we've got the Mack Group, and we've got the Illinois Chief of Police. Why don't we ask each of them to write a proposal to us, a process that will eliminate bias. Let the experts present a process to us that will ensure bias is eliminated. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: We have two proposals already. MS. ZANNIS: But we disagree that bias is being removed. MR. CALEEL: Well, it's a question of how you define it. My question is this. If the -- say you have three candidates that are selected by these folks and you pick one candidate and the Board DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 65 • • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 doesn't agree. Is that prejudice? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: It depends on what you're voting on, George, on what basis you're casting your vote. MR. CALEEL: Well, of course, if we look at all three candidates that we're going to be interviewing and we think there's a better one than the one that you're selecting based on merit and qualifications, we're going to assume they all are qualified. Otherwise they wouldn't have been picked. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: If you want to compromise, then right now unless you can show me another way, you're going to have to give up your vote on that final three. MR. CALEEL: No. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Then show me another way to go about it that eliminates the prejudice. MR. CALEEL: You show me a way. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I've already tried to show a way. You disagree with it. Your turn. MR. YUSUF: May I suggest, President Quinlan, we go into closed session, we have a discussion about the issues that led you to the conclusion that DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 16. 0 1 • 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the Board is acting with prejudice, and then we see what we can do to -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I don't think so. MR. YUSUF: -- clear the air on it. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: We may go to closed session, but I'm not going to discuss them at this point in time. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I'm going to follow Trustee Atkipis' lead and believe that that should be left for public purview. MR. YUSUF: Fine. Then we'll leave it for public purview. I have no problem with that. We can do it tonight as far as I'm concerned. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: We will do it at the regular Board of Trustees meeting. MS. ZANNIS: Why? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I believe Mr. Atkipis is not present, and I believe the Village Attorney is not present. MR. YUSUF: You know, if there's a feeling that I'm acting with bias, I certainly want to do everything I can to dispel that. I think every one of us wants to, if indeed it's unwarranted. If it's warranted, we have to answer for it. I don't think DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 a r� L 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 it is, certainly in my case. But the sooner we clear the air on it, I think the better it is. MR. CALEEL: Assuming that we do not agree with the one you select, then it's bias or prejudice or something else. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Turn our ability to make that selection to an outside board. It removes your ability to be prejudicial -- sorry. I apologize, Elaine. MS. ZANNIS: Thank you. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: -- biased in the decision. It removes my ability as well to be biased in the decision. It completely removes us all. My favorite three candidates that I think should be in the pool may not be there. The question that Trustee Zannis asked two or three meetings ago, you mean that none of the three -- or none of the four that I gave you could be in that pool? And I said yes. And none of the three that I've got on my list could be there. All seven of them -- actually it's a field of five. There you go. It's a field of five -- may not be there, which would prove that all of us probably were wrong in our ability to make a DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 • • L ..J 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 selection. MR. CALEEL: But then if you did select one, then we have the privilege of voting. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No. MR. CALEEL: No, you won't give us that? MS. KORIN: It's not a matter of giving. It's already our right. MR. CALEEL: It's our right. It's the law. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I'm giving up some of my rights, too. MS. KORIN: We're all giving up the opportunity to -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No, you're not. According to state statute, Susan, you know as well as I do the way the process works is I don't even have to include you guys in the search process. Now, George pointed out a while ago, it would be a good idea and preferable that I do, and I have agreed with that. But according to statute, I don't have to allow you in the search process one iota. I can show up with a candidate and put him on the floor. Now, in all likelihood, you're going to say, you're a jerk, we're voting him out. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 • • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. CALEEL: That's right. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: We haven't even had a chance to talk to him. And I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. MR. YUSUF: I would hope we'd table it, and have a chance to talk to -- PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Well, call me a jerk, then table it, and then talk to him. Fine. But that's the way the statute reads. That's the process. MS. KORIN: Let's follow the statute. Put a name up there. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Then you'll vote bias. MS. KORIN: Give a name to this Board, and if it's somebody that we have not or that some of us have not or that the entire Board has not interviewed, we will interview that person or persons. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: You know one of the candidates that you haven't interviewed that's on my list. He's occupying the office down the hall. MS. KORIN: If you want to submit that name to this Board, I would be happy to interview him before -- DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 70 rIM 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 9 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Susan, come on now. MS. KORIN: You know what Kevin? Show me where it says prejudice must be removed from the process. That is not in the state statute. You get to nominate, and we get to vote. That's all that's in the state statute. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I believe in your own press release, one of the things you said you were most upset about, that I made it clear that I believe he is a leading candidate. Have you interviewed him? MS. KORIN: We said that it was not fair to place this man in a position where he would become an acting chief and call him a leading candidate. It was not fair to the other pool. It was not fair to try to get the process and to try to get people to submit their names. I mean, if the outside world thinks this is a done deal, then perhaps they wouldn't even go to the effort of submitting their name. That's what this Board had a problem with, most of this Board. MR. YUSUF: You know, we can either continue to look back or we can look forward. I can pledge to you that I will act objectively and without DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 71 1* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1* 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 prejudice, fairly, and judge people on merit, fitness, and experience, and nothing else. I would hope that my colleagues here would be willing to give you the same pledge. And again, forget what's happened in the past. Look forward. And whether you're putting somebody up or not, if you're considering putting them up at any point, I think we should talk to the man, interview him. MS. KORIN: Asif, I just said, if we can save $8,000, if he wants to put a name up, we can have an interview with one, two, three, however many people, and continue down the process as the state statute describes. If we want to follow the process that we get an independent company, that's fine, too. We spend $8,000. I'm not going to spend $8,000, travel down that path, probably spend many more hours, and then get to a point we're at a complete impasse because your nonnegotiable is that we don't vote and our nonnegotiable is that we do vote. How does that benefit the process? It doesn't. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Prove to me you can act DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 72 • • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 without bias. MS. KORIN: I don't have to prove that, Kevin. MR. CALEEL: She doesn't have to prove that. MS. KORIN: The democratic process says that you nominate and I advise and consent. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Okay, Susan. MS. KORIN: I don't have to prove anything to you. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: The democratic process says I don't have to appoint either. MS. KORIN: Then if you choose not to appoint, that would be your choice. That would be a very telling statement to this community. MR. YUSUF: That is your prerogative, you know. As I read the law, that is your prerogative to maintain the temporary appointment as long as you choose to. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: We can go down that path if you don't want to seek a compromise. That's fine. MS. KORIN: How many times have I come to the table to discuss a compromise? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Excuse me. There will be DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 73 L� 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 no comments from the floor this evening. I apologize. I know you may or may not want to talk. This is a special meeting, and it is the business of the Board. It's held in open session only to allow the public to view it. The discussion is amongst the Board and the staff only. A VOICE: Is that stated in the meeting? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: That is a regular condition of Board meetings, with the exception of the resident visitor comment. A VOICE: (Inaudible comment.) PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Yes, sir, it was, and please refrain from further comment, sir. Thank you. MR. YUSUF: You know, we can go down that road, absolutely we can, but we did commit to a search process, and we made some pretty good progress, I thought, in identifying candidates. And what I'm going to suggest, for what it's worth, is that we finalize that process. If we have to interview anybody else, we do it, we form our opinions, and we move forward. Again it is your prerogative to maintain that appointment for the next -- a DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 74 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 substantial amount of time, two and a half years, two years and eight months, whatever it is, or six years and eight months, depending on how things go, whatever the case may be. But we did all agree to that process originally. And what I'm saying is if you let us know the reason for the perceived prejudice, maybe we can take steps to dispel that. Maybe we can't. I don't want to give up my right to be subjective in my evaluation based on merit, fitness, and experience. I certainly will not act in a prejudicial manner against any individual. Again, I only speak for myself. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Does the Board wish to take any action tonight? MR. CALEEL: Move to adjourn. MS. ZANNIS: No. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: MS. ZANNIS: No. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: MS. ZANNIS: I had I'm going to try one more PRESIDENT QUINLAN: floor? No? Well, that's your vote. a job to do tonight, and time. Are you asking for the DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 75 • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. ZANNIS: Yes. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I assume I'm not hearing a second on that motion at this time? Okay. MS. ZANNIS: Of the candidates that you have received resumes on, are you at all interested in exploring the possibility of making an appointment from that pool? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Yes. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. Do you need help in doing that? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Do I need help in making the appointment? MS. ZANNIS: No, in helping define -- you know, like maybe -- maybe one of the paths you would consider is if you want to have a consultant, that would work with you in helping identify of all those candidates who you would be willing to appoint. Maybe that that's -- maybe that's something for you to consider. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Only to the degree that the Board would follow the consultants advice, regardless of my input. MS. ZANNIS: Well, the consultant would be working for you, and then the consultant would say, DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 76 1* 1 • 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I think this is the best candidate. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I would rather have a consultant work for the entire Board. MS. ZANNIS: Well, if the entire Board doesn't want that, I mean, you still have the option of having the consultant work for you. MR. CALEEL: I wouldn't agree to that. MS. ZANNIS: But why, George? MR. CALEEL: Well, if he wants to look at the pool of candidates and give us four names to consider, I'd be willing to do that. MS. ZANNIS: Well, here's what would happen. He would -- he would consider the pool with the consultant. He would come up with a choice. He would make a nomination, and then we would advise and consent. I mean, we're not giving up our vote. He still gets an objective perspective of the 44. MR. CALEEL: He has the authority to appoint, and we have the authority to advise and consent. And -- MS. ZANNIS: But if he needs assistance in helping to identify who he wants to -- MR. CALEEL: He didn't say he needs assistance. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 77 • i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. ZANNIS: That's what I just asked him. MR. CALEEL: He doesn't need assistance. MS. ZANNIS: Okay. If the consensus is that he doesn't need assistance, then can you take the 44 and make an appointment from one of them? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: As soon as you prove to me that you can vote without bias. MS. ZANNIS: Do you need to make an appointment without bias? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Do I need to make an appointment? MS. ZANNIS: Without bias? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Yeah, I believe that you need to vote without bias. MS. ZANNIS: But do you make an appointment without bias? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I don't need to make an appointment. MS. ZANNIS: You do make an appointment. You appoint; we consent. Do you appoint without bias? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I would expect this Board to vote without bias. MS. ZANNIS: But I'm asking you, do you -- DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 0 1 L-1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 will you appoint without a bias? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No, I will not appoint anyone, be it John Smith or John Jones or Bill Franks or whatever, until I am sure that the Board will vote based on merit, fitness, and experience, which is outlined -- MS. ZANNIS: Okay. So I'm only going to repeat myself. You are asking for an assurance, and I'm asking for that same assurance from you. What assurance do I have that you will not appoint with bias? And however you prove to me that you're not going to make an appointment based on bias, I will give that consideration. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Okay. I'm not appointing with bias. The sheer fact -- MS. ZANNIS: Okay. I am not voting with bias. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Well, I think we're going to have a long conversation about that when we have a full Board and the attorney present. MR. YUSUF: I would suggest that at some point, whether it's this meeting or the next scheduled meeting, we have a discussion about your first choice, or your apparent first choice, based DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 79 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 on merit, fitness, and experience. Whether we do it in closed session or open session, let's discuss these criteria and see how the man stands up, how the candidate stands up. And maybe we can get a clearer picture. And I certainly intend to vote based on these three things, nothing more, nothing less. And I think maybe information will be the most helpful thing to facilitate this process. MR. CALEEL: Well, that might be a good topic of conversation at the meeting. MR. CALEEL: Well, I think the president's already made up his mind who his candidate is, and he wants us to give up our advice and consent. MR. YUSUF: And I'm not saying we should by any stretch of the imagination. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: George, I'll agree -- MR. CALEEL: And I think that's true. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I'll agree and disagree with you at the same time. I have made it very clear, and I'll make it publicly clear. I personally believe that Acting Chief Carpino is an excellent candidate, in my mind the best candidate for this position. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 • F-� • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 However, I have also offered up search processes that may or may not include him in the final selection process that I would have no influence whatsoever over. So do -- so that's why I say I agree and disagree with you. Do I believe he is the best candidate? Yes, I do. But am I willing to put that to an outside independent test and, if I'm proven wrong, to allow that selection to go away? I've stated for the last, I think about a month, yes, I am. I'm wrong, I'm w with it, I guess A VOICE: own the city. PRESIDENT clear -- A VOICE: duty, please. PRESIDENT the last time I' A VOICE: PRESIDENT I'm not afraid of being wrong. if rong, and I'll go with it, or not go as the case would be. You're running the city. You don't QUINLAN: Sir, I've made it I remind you of your fiduciary QUINLAN: Sir, sir, please, this is m going to ask. It's an open forum. QUINLAN: No, sir, it is not. Now, DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 • • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 please -- A VOICE: This should be closed. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Done? A VOICE: You go ahead. MS. ZANNIS: I think Asif's got the button. MR. YUSUF: I think we all have buttons, but I'd hate to see it come to that. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Anyway, my point, George, is that I agree and disagree with you on that, but I'm willing to turn it over to an outside, independent search firm. And if I am wrong in my judgment, I'm willing to accept that as proof by an outside, independent firm. But, yes, to your point, I do believe he is the best candidate at this point in time. Now, does the Board plan on taking any further action? MS. ZANNIS: Would you consider having a different interim chief while this process continues? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No. MS. ZANNIS: Are you biased in that? PRESIDENT QUINLAN: No, I think the police department is running quite well right now. Why DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 C� CJ • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 don't you go have a talk with a few of the officers. Pick any one of them you like. Pick five. Get yourself a good selection. MR. YUSUF: You know, if we start on this process without nailing down how we're going to proceed, it does move things along and is a step in the right direction. But it's kind of like buying a nice set of silverware, some nice china, some nice glasses, and getting in an argument over what you're going to serve for dinner and deciding to skip dinner. I'm just worried that we're not going to end up at square one when we're all done with this. MS. ZANNIS: I concur. MR. CALEEL: Well, I think that the president said he wanted the attorney present and Stelios to be present, too, so I move we adjourn. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Are you seconding John's motion? MR. CRAIG: I already moved to adjourn. MR. CALEEL: Well, I'll second it. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: You know how he likes to make motions. DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 • • • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. CALEEL: We're not going anywhere. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: I have a second. All in favor. MR. YUSUF: Aye. MS. KORIN: Aye. MS. ZANNIS: Aye. PRESIDENT QUINLAN: Any opposed? This meeting is adjourned. (Which were all the proceedings had at the meeting of the above - entitled cause, this date.) DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069 rMn 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) SS. COUNTY OF DU PAGE ) I, Tina Colias Dillon, Certified Shorthand Reporter, a Notary Public in and for the County of DuPage and State of Illinois, do hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and correct transcript of my shorthand notes taken from an audiovisual device. IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have set my hand and affixed my notarial seal this 3rd day of November, 2004. Certified Shorthand Reporter DILLON REPORTING SERVICE - (312) 553 -0069