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Minutes - 12/16/2013 - Plan Commission MINUTES OF THE DECEMBER 16, 2013 REGULAR MEETING OF THE PLAN COMMISSION OF THE VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK APPROVED AS WRITTEN ON JANUARY 20,2014 1. CALL TO ORDER: CALL TO ORDER i The Regular Meeting of the Plan Commission was called to order by Chairwoman Tropinski in the Samuel E. Dean Board Room of the Butler Government Center at 7:02 p.m. 2. ROLL CALL: ROLL CALL Gail Polanek called the roll with the following persons PRESENT: Chairwoman Marcia Tropinski, Members Thomas Doyle, Naveen Jain,Raj Lal, Simon Sheers and William Weiss ABSENT: Member Raju Iyer IN ATTENDANCE: Gerald Wolin, Trustee and Director of Community Development Robert Kallien Jr. Member Lal and Member Weiss stated for the record that they watched the DVD of MEMBER the October 21, 2013 Plan Commission meeting in its entirety. STATEMENT 3. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: MINUTES REGULAR MEETING OF THE PLAN COMMISSION OF OCTOBER 21 2013 Motion by Member Doyle, seconded by Member Weiss to approve the minutes of the October 21, 2013 Regular PIan Commission meeting as written. VOICE VOTE: Motion Carried. 4. UNFINISHED BUSINESS UNFINISHED BUSINESS i A. MB BANK — ROCCA — 3824 YORK ROAD — CERTIFICATE OF MB BANK - j APPROPRIATENESS — AMEND CONDITIONS OF ORDINANCE S-914 YORK RD- CERT RELATING TO SIGNS APPROPRIATE - AMEND S-914 Chairwoman Tropinski noted that this public hearing had been continued fiom the October 21,2013 meeting. All who would testify at the hearing were sworn in. Director of Community Development Kallien provided an overview of the request noting at the last meeting it was decided that additional alternatives were needed. The applicant is seeking to replace the current sign and has provided 4 new options and staff provided an option. The proposed monument sign would be in the same location as the current 5-foot high sign. Being located in the Historic Graue Mill VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page I of 11 December 16, 2013 Wool- Gateway Overlay District any changes to those buildings, including new construction and exterior modifications require Village review and the issuance of a Certificate of Appropriateness. The original Rocca building located at 3824 York received a Certificate of Appropriateness. They are now seeking an amendment to it in order to modify the existing signage on the property, which requires a public hearing before the Plan Commission,with approval by the Village Board. Douglas Merritt, Professional Permits, agent representing MB Bank Corporation, the Icon Companies and Mr. Rocca the property owner. He noted that in Mr. Rocca's absence, John Romanelli would represent the property owner and property interest. He introduced Bret Dvorak and Robert Lucente, The Icon Companies who is the design manufacturer and program management company for MB Bank and Alan Rocca, the property owner. Judy Hastings, MB Bank, Corporate Representative and Pam Voss, MB Bank, Corporate Banking Manager also attended. Mr. Merritt noted that they appreciated the feedback from the October meeting. On behalf of MB Bank they have selected an option that is most conducive for not only MB but for Mr. Rocca's building. The architecture proposed in the changes respects the Graue Mill corridor and most importantly the profile logo on the ground sign that currently exists on the site. He reviewed the options through slides. He noted that the wall sign would be the same with only a color change to the red MB logo. MB Option I — Monument sign would remain 10 feet in height and be 9'2" in length. MB logo would remain 4-feet by 4-feet in size. The accents for the tenant panels are slightly modified. MB Option 2 —A vertical format Monument sign would be reduced in height to 8 feet and be 8'8" in length. The MB logo was reduced in size to 3-feet by 3-feet. The j three tenant panels would be located below the MB logo. MB Option 3—Was MB and the property owners preferred option. The monument sign would be reduced in height to 8 feet and would have an increased length of 11'8". MB logo would measure 3'6" by 3'6". The three tenant panels would be placed toward the building side of the MB logo. A day/night photo was also provided showing the internal illumination of the individual letters and only the MB white lettering would be illuminated. There would no longer be an external illumination from a light shining on the sign. MB Option 4—Monument sign would be 10 feet in height and 11'8"in length. MB logo would measure 3'6" by 3'6". The three tenant panels would be placed toward j the building side of the MB logo. It is very similar to Option 3, there is just 2 feet increased in height. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 2,aof 11 December 16,2013 The proposed wall sign with the red logo color was also shown. Slides of pictures showing the property, along York Road, and with the recent weather event included pictures taken at the site today that showed the snow covered area and the conditions along the corridor. Option 3 was the applicant's preferred option and was reviewed from the line of sight down York Road, it allows for landscaping at the bottom of the sign and the type is legible for the motorist as they travel on York Road. Member Sheers questioned the picture of the McDonald's sign and questioned whether it was in the Graue Mill district. Mr. Merritt noted that it is located across the street adjacent to the liquor store (the last building in Oak Brook) as a comparable in the built environment and because it is a monument sign in close proximity to their location. It was their intent to show some options/variables within and adjacent to their building, which is the last building in Oak Brook on the west side of York Road. Director of Community Development Kallien responded that the McDonald's sign was in the Graue Mill district. William Lindeman, 11 Pembroke Lane was sworn in and said that he checked the history on MB Bank. He visited the bank and took pictures of the area. He found that there are office buildings to the south of Mr. Rocca's building, and they do not have tenant identification signage. The McDonald's sign is in Hinsdale. He viewed the last meeting on u-tube and there was mention of branding and logo's. Branding is prevalent everywhere, but he did not know if it should be used in the historic district. He reviewed other monument signs and logos throughout the Village. In his opinion, banks have a perceived need to show their presence as people pass by. In the MB bank front windows, they placed two red signs. He suggested that a couple of parking spaces be eliminated to allow a higher angle of visibility of the sign when traveling north. He also suggested rotating the sign to make it parallel to York Road. If the parking spaces were eliminated and the landscaping moved to the rear, it would make it more visible. The area needs help. Member Lal questioned the banks hours of operation and asked why after 10 years, there is suddenly the necessity to change the signage. Pam Voss, manager of the MB Bank location, noted that they close at 6 p.m. M-F and 1 p.m. on Saturday and that they open at 8:00 a.m. each day. In response to why the needed the signage, Mr. Merritt said that it was directed by their patrons. They come into their facility and when looking for the facility have indicated that the existing ground sign is not providing way finding for them to locate their facility in a sufficient amount of time, and reduce the number of VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 3 of 11 December 16,2013 i f turnarounds that are made into Hinsdale and back, trying to find the location. They (MB) have other facilities that are more of a typical building architecture/design. This property is unique in that it has a drive-thru that cannot be seen from the roadway. It is an architecturally unique and beautiful building. The building does not stand out to the patrons indicating that it is a bank and not a residential building. Member Lal noted that most cars have GPS and/or phones where they can get to the building. If someone were heading there, they would try to look for the location, have some mental picture of at least where it is and try to find the place. The argument that it has changed in 10 years when there is overwhelming evidence of technological improvements where people are going without knowing where they are going and cannot find the place. GPS prompts people to turn and lets you know if you have made a wrong turn. Mr. Merritt thanked him and responded that the assumption would be that every vehicle would be equipped with GPS. He personally did not have it until last year. He also noted that there are laws about holding a hand-held device when driving and trying to locate a building. When freestanding signs located adjacent to a roadway for decades have served motorists in way finding and is the most useful tool and not a device that may be equipped in your car, which you may or may not have in order 3 to locate the building. Member Lal looked at the Option 3 picture and noted the first thing someone should see is the address of the property and the first thing seen on a sign should be the address. Chairwoman Tropinski noted that on the old sign the limestone coping is 5 foot 3 inches and on the new sign, it is 6 foot 8 inches, a difference of 1 foot 5 inches, which is a modest increase in height. From a design standpoint,the sign is longer in order to give equal timing to the MB logo, plus the other letters. On the existing sign, it cannot be seen. She drives passed there frequently and never noticed who the tenants were. It is very important branding to them. In many of the corporate buildings,there are logos, and in answer to Mr. Lindeman,from a design standpoint, it is very eye catching. With the red logo, the sign will now be seen, before you could not see the sign. The reason the sign is longer is in order to'balance the logo with the lettering. The lettering needs to be bigger so that it can be seen. As an architect, she understood that it had to be increased in order to be able to see it. As a consumer,without GPS,she needs to see where she is going. Member Jain said that we want to help the businesses grow their business, which is our mission. He did not question the intent of MB Bank. If the businesses feel they want to attract more traffic and make it easier for consumers he understood the intent of why they want the change. When questioned what the Commission is there to judge, he believed was the appropriateness. Valuing the appropriateness in three dimensions, would be would be color, dimensions, and the equality for all of the people in the building. He understood the color for the branding. When driving I VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 4 of 11 December 16,2013 l through Oak Brook, color is all over the place on every road. He did not think that the color was inappropriate and was similar to other colors in that area. Dimensions are important to him; Personally, he preferred Option 2 over Option 3 because it provides the largest tenant prominence balance and the dimension was the only thing really being changed and is only 3 feet in height. The only thing sacrificed in Option 2 is that `York Road' is not shown on the sign. However, if they did not know they were on York Road, there is a problem. The sign has balance to height and equality. He prefers Option 2 and 3. Member Sheers said that from being an owner of a graphics company there was no question that he would choose Option 3. It is the cleanest of all and serves the purpose of advertising the main tenant. He found two of the other options too tall. Option 3 was well balanced, instead of having the logo centered in'Option 2. Chairwoman Tropinski said the issue with Option 2 was that the letters for the tenants were too low on the sign. John Romanelli said that he represented ownership and that it was about 10 years ago when they developed the building and talked about the Certificate of Appropriateness. They requested 6 variances, 3 special uses and rezoning of the property from residential to commercial. In retrospect they may have made a mistake on the sign, They wanted a property that looked residential and even today they are always getting comments about it being one of the nicest buildings in Oak Brook. Even when they were designing the building, they took the time to include the consideration of decorating the property for the holidays..One of the options they had was to put signage on the building. The ground sign was part of the special use request. The idea was that because there was so much land owned by the County in front of them, that you could not see the building.. By making it look residential people thought that it was a bed and breakfast or that a big house was being built on York Road. They tried to make it look as residential as possible. His office is there and it is true that people always call and ask them where they are and he tells them that they passed the building. They received unanimous approval from the Village. They always knew that there would need to be a bank with a drive-thru on the property and during that time they were offered by the then Village President Bushy to have everything approved, except the drive-thru, but they would not accept that because they knew they needed a bank in order to make the project feasible. MB is their most important tenant,more so then he(Romanelli)or Rocca. He said that Mr. Lindeman had mentioned that there were all commercial buildings to the south of their property. This property is the last property in Oak Brook on the west side of the street; across the street it is the liquor store and after that is the Village of Hinsdale. At that time, they also went to the Village of Hinsdale informally for the Certificate of Appropriateness. The building directly south of them is the Graue Mill Executive center, which is office condominiums and has a large ground sign. The next building across the street is owned by Al Koplin, then PNC Bank. If you drive down the street,you can easily see those businesses and their signs; and it may be that they are setback so far, but they thought that the ground sign with some I VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 5 of 11 December 16,2013 i limited signage on the building would be more appropriate than plastering signs all over the building. He stated that they really need some relief. Member Doyle said that one of the things they had not taken into consideration was that part of the appropriateness was the fact that it is in the Graue Mill Historical District, which is covered by a relationship between the Village of Oak Brook and the Village of Hinsdale. The appropriateness is not just the sign itself,but also its appropriateness in the historical district. He lives off York Road and knows the j property very well. He truly believes that they need relief, so much so that he actually preferred the larger signs versus the smaller signs because of that. There are real issues even with an 8-foot high sign as far as approaching the building and being able to see the location of the building. He was not comfortable with the way the area of the sign was used. There is a lot of exposed field rock on the original sign presented and the lettering within the sign did not dominate the fieldstone. He found Option 2 to be the most appropriate in those terms. However,he did not think that the logo needed to be as large as they had proposed. One of the things he likes in Option 2 was that the logo is smallest of the rest. If people do not know they are on York Road they should not be driving. The numbering and the size of it was very important and one of the functions of numbering is that it lets people know where they are. Because there will no longer be ground lighting,the numbers on top of the sign would not be visible when it is dark. He suggested that the numbers be backlit. There is more sensitivity to the historic district in Option 2 versus Options 3 and 4. E Member Weiss said that the original sign was too washed out and he understood the j legitimate need to draw attention to it. He thought that Option 3 was a legitimate j compromise and he had no objections to that option. He understood the comments regarding Option 2 being more in tune with the historical district, but Option 3 was good. Member Lal said that he had been a resident since 1979 and he is not an architect, but knows the location. He noted that if you look at the street signs they are very small and people get there without GPS,etc. it's a constant He understood the need of the business community and he is business friendly and wants the Village to thrive, but at the same time Oak Brook is very quaint in character. It has ambiance and prestige. He said that businesses do not come to Oak Brook because they want signage;they come because Oak Brook offers them the most important place to have a business where the high-class customers come. He said there was no scientific evidence that a small sign or large sign would change that, it is in the eye of the beholder. Mr. Butler knew what was applicable and what was not, he set the standards, but that does not mean that you should not change with the times. The address has to be prominent and he had no problem with Option;3, but the logo should be smaller and the width should be adjusted. It is an historical district. t Member Sheers said that he agreed it would be helpful if the address would be illuminated. I VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 6 of 11 December 16,2013 �� I Mr. Merritt responded that they would be happy to use the same illumination for the address that is used on the rest of the lettering on the sign Chairwoman Tropinski asked the commissioners to state which option they preferred. Member Sheers said that he preferred Option 3, with the full address illuminated at night. j Member Jain said he preferred Option 2,with the address illuminated. Chairwoman Tropinski preferred Option 3 along with the street address illuminated. Member Weiss said that he also preferred Option 3 along with the address illuminated. Member Lal said that he preferred Option 3, along with the address illuminated. Although,he was still concerned about the width of the sign. Member Doyle said that he liked both Option 3 and 2, but liked 2 better than 3. He would make a recommendation that if Option 3 were selected then it would be feasible that the size of the logo be reduced, which would allow the elimination of some of the white space and would expose more fieldstone and would reduce the tenant panel from about 14 to 12 inches. Director of Community Development Kallien noted that by changing the sign a little on each side would be a noticeable decrease. All Members found Option 3 to be an appropriate sign. Member Sheers, Weiss and Chairwoman Tropinski felt Option 3 was appropriate as proposed. Members Jain and Lal agreed, but would like to consider Member Doyle's added suggestion. Mr.Merritt summarized that based on the comments received from the Commission; the request would be a combination of Option 3.By maintaining the height of 8 feet, a reduction of the MB logo to 3 feet square and a reduction in the width of the tenant panels from 14 inches to 12 inches. However, the lettering height of the characters in the tenant panels is only 4 inches tall, where the sign itself is 30 feet from the roadway with a 4-inch character. He thanked the Commission,but his only concern would be that the letter and character height is only 4 inches tall. To reduce the j panel for an increase in the fieldstone mass could hinder the ability for Mr.Rocca or Mr. Romanelli to include a new tenant with a specific number of characters. A 17- character name presents an issue at a possible later date. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 7 of 11 December 16,2013 .A,& I Director of Community Development Kallien asked about the focus on the 4-inch letter height,which could be the case for the existing tenants based on their need or desire to have two lines of text. The sign designer would need to utilize the available space.. Chairwoman Tropinski noted that a 12"panel was not very much. She noted that the discussion had become very subjective and not objective. Director of Community Development Kallien noted that in a discussion with Trustee Wolin,the sign request is very similar,yet very different to other requests relative to lighting and signs. At the end of the day, it comes down to a subjective process where there is quantitative statistical analysis that one does in terms of line of sight and what is or is not an appropriate height. When it gets down to this amount of detail it is really what you feel is appropriate from a judgment standpoint. If this building were not in the Graue Mill Gateway Area, this property could have a 10- foot high sign by right,but because of the added overlay,the Village has the ability 3 to influence the ultimate size, design and color, which is a process that other properties do not need to go through. The Commission then comes up with the proper balance so that the Village, the property owner and tenants can walk away knowing they got the best possible sign for this particular property. Mr. Romanelli said that he would like to have his full company name on the panel rather than making it shorter. He noted that when they did the original sign, it was designed by a real estate builder (referring to himself) and a jewelry manufacturer (Alan Rocca). They did not have a sign company design it and this sign company actually knows what they are doing and provided some feedback. They found over ° a period of time that people were just driving past the existing sign. The idea is to have a destination so that it can be seen. To have a larger sign with the same size letters really would not help and they may have the same problem. Chairwoman Tropinski said that from her perspective, the purpose of the sign is to be seen and in terms of safety that while you drive you are able to make out the letters. Personally, she would not like to see the letters smaller:. Member Sheers said that if the letters were made smaller you would not be able to see them. Member Doyle said that if the letters were not made smaller, the logo would not be able to be reduced to 36 inches and in his opinion, the 42-inch logo was I inappropriate in the historical district. The sign no longer has the feel of the historical district. If that were the case then he would change his opinion that Option 3 would not be appropriate. Member Lal said that Mr. Lindeman had given measurements that should be considered.. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK j Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 8 of 11 December lb,2013 1 E 1 i i Chairwoman Tropinski responded that overall you have to give the measurements in terms of design and balance. Logos are very important, and she has worked with logos for her company's buildings.. Tenants pay a lot of money to have those logos. It is a big advertising thing. In the past,when the Double Tree Hotel was going up an authoritative figure did not like the colors and demanded that they be changed. You cannot do that kind of thing. Companies spend a lot of money on their branding and it is critical to businesses. She questioned if the red square really was found to be offensive. The red is not backlit only the white letters. She noted that a McDonald's sign was seen down the road, which was more colorful, graphic and a brighter advertisement than this proposal. It all comes down to some subjectivity. Member Lal noted that Oak Brook itself was a brand and anyone is coming in I because of that brand. He suggested that they could figure it out and come back to the Commission. The Commission should not debate it. Ultimately, it would go to the Village Board for approval. i Director of Community Development Kallien noted that there are two options at hand. He questioned what would benefit by not taking a vote. The discussion had been very thorough and all issues were reviewed. Member Lal said that the Commission does not want to set a precedent. He noted that the historical district must be honored. He suggested that they bring it back at another meeting. Mr. Merritt responded that after 3 months they have brought multiple options to the Village for consideration. They have been very open and thorough and had the opportunity to engage a Trustee and have worked closely with staff. It would set them back if the matter was tabled when a majority of Commissioners felt strongly for one option. They too believe in the brand and want to be in Oak Brook. They understand the historical nature of the building and they located in the building; The building is a bank that also offers a multi-tenant allowance. It has a drive-thru and the sign is set back close to 30 feet off the roadway. They came to the Commission 3 with multiple options for a decision at this meeting and then to be forwarded on to the Board of Trustees. He respectfully submitted in closing that the Commission make a motion and approve Option 3 as presented with the modification that the petitioner and property owner to change the illumination of the address to be uniform and consistent with the balance of the sign. Chairwoman Tropinski made a statement that as an architect and student of architectural history and a former member of the National Historic Society for Preservation personally could not find any objective reason for any negativity to Option 3. As a professional, she felt the option to be appropriate.. I Member Sheers said that the worst customers in his graphic design company were I the ones that were designed by committee,and that was all he would say about it. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 9 of 11 December 16,2013 I i Motion by Member Sheers, seconded by Member Weiss to recommend approval of the request of an amendment to the conditions of the Certificate of Appropriateness in Ordinance S-914 as proposed in the proposed MB Option 3, subject to the following conditions: i 1. To allow the replacement of the existing ground sign with a new sign to be Eight feet (8') in height by Eleven feet eight inches (11'8") in width using the MB Bank Logo/color. The street address on the sign is to be illuminated. The location of the new sign is to meet the existing setback to the right of way as the existing sign. ; 2. Allow the color change to the existing MB Bank wall sign to allow the MB bank red color. 3. All signage and locations are to be in substantial conformance with the plans as shown on page 13,sheet labeled Option 3 of the case file. 4. All other conditions of Ordinance S-914 would remain in full force and i effect. I 5,. The Sign Permit when issued is subject to all other applicable rules and ordinances of the Village of Oak Brook. 6. Add the provision"Notwithstanding the attached exhibits,the applicant shall meet all Village Ordinance requirements at the time of building permit application except as specifically varied or waived. Member Doyle requested an amendment to the motion to reduce the size of the red MB logo on the sign in Option 3 from forty-two inches square (42") to thirty-six I inches square (36"). Member Lal seconded the amendment. s Member Sheers did not accept the amendment to the motion, stating that the proposed size of the logo was fine, which made the proposed amendment to the motion subject to a vote by the Commission. I ROLL CALL VOTE on the amendment to the reduction of the size of the logo. Ayes: 4— Members Doyle,Jain, Lal and Weiss Absent: 1 — Member Iyer Nays: 2— Member Sheers and Chairwoman Tropinski. i Amendment to the Motion Carried. Chairwoman Tropinski noted that she felt strongly about allowing the original size of the logo to remain. Vote on the original motion stated above,with the size of the logo reduced from 42 j inches to 36-inches. l ROLL CALL VOTE: Ayes: 5— Members Doyle,Jain, Lal, Sheers and Weiss r Absent: 1 — Member Iyer i Nays: 1 — Chairwoman Tropinski.Motion carried. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page 10 of 1 I December 16,2013 4. B. VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK TEXT AMENDMENT SIGN VOB TEXT REGULATIONS AMENDMENT - SIGN REGULATIONS Motion by Member Jain, seconded by Member Sheers to continue the review of the Sign Regulations to the next Regular Plan Commission meeting. VOICE VOTE: Motion Carried. S. NEW BUSINESS NEW BUSINESS There was no new business to discuss 6. OTHER BUSINESS OTHER BUSINESS Director of Community Development Kallien reviewed the upcoming cases. There was no other business to discuss. 7. ADJOURNMENT: ADJOURNMENT Motion by Member Iyer, seconded by Member Doyle to adjourn the meeting at 9:20 p.m. VOICE VOTE: Motion carried. ATTEST: Isl Robert L.Kallien Jr. Robert Kallien,Director of Community Development Secretary VILLAGE OF OAK BROOK Regular Plan Commission Minutes Page I I of 11 December 16,2013 ..00% . IAN